- From: Gilles Sérasset <Gilles.Serasset@imag.fr>
- Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:39:40 +0100
- To: Philipp Cimiano <cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de>, public-ontolex@w3.org
- Message-Id: <C4292636-4371-496D-9F6B-89D98C30010D@imag.fr>
Dear all, I have a question regarding Translation. Lets take the japanese of 御飯 (gohan), which has a meaning of "cooked rice". Lets take the english term "rice" (which refers to cooked or uncooked rice, indistinctly. I consider both terms as translations of each others, even if they do not share the reference. Indeed, I do think that the Translation relation is useful, as the lexicon should exist even if no conceptualization is available. It is also really useful to encode existing lexica. But with this definition, if my lexicon state that gohan is a translation of rice, then we would legitimately infer that concept:rice owl:sameAs concept:cooked_rice. Isn't it a problem in itself ? Regards, Gilles, On 13 févr. 2014, at 16:22, Philipp Cimiano <cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de> wrote: > Hi Elena, > > just to clarify intuitions. I am calling a Translation something which preserves the reference (no matter if literal or not). > > So according to what I have now it holds that: > > Class: var:Translation > > SubclassOf: > ontolex:InterlingualVariant > ontolex:TermVariant > > rdfs:comment "The relation between two lexical senses in different languages the references of which are the same."@en > > So this means that Translation is a relation between two Lexical Senses in different languages the reference of which is the same. > > On the other hand, CulturalEquivalent (or simply Equivalent!) is defined as follows: > > Class: var:CulturalEquivalent > > SubclassOf: > ontolex:InterlingualVariant > ontolex:SemanticVariant > > rdfs:comment "The relation between two lexical senses in different languages the references of which are directly ontologically related either through subsumption or via a shared superconcept."@en > > > > i.e. the references are directly ontologically related, does this make sense? > > Philipp. > > > Am 13.02.14 16:10, schrieb Philipp Cimiano: >> Hi Elena, >> >> see below >> >> Am 13.02.14 13:13, schrieb Elena Montiel Ponsoda: >>> Dear Philipp, >>> >>> Thanks for the updates. >>> I have direclty modified the text in the specification (maybe I should not?), but we can still reconsider this... >>> On the one hand, I thought it is important to specify already at the introduction that there is one type of variation that is established between LexicalEntries (i.e., define LexicalVariants), how do you see it? >> >> Yes fine, I should remove the restriction from Variants that requires LexicalSense, I will do it now. >>> On the other, I was not so happy with the "terminology" used when dealing with cross-lingual variants, specifically when stating that Translations are literal translations... >> Fair enough, if the idea is removing "literal" I am agnostic ;-) >> >>> From the Translation discipline perspective, this would be problematic, IMHO. >>> I think we should refer to them as Translations or Interlingual variants (in general). That is what people interested in multilinguality will be looking for, I think. If you think that the MultiWordNet community would be happier with Inter-lingual variant is fine, but the translation or terminology community will be looking for "translation". Would it be feasible to keep both denominations? Since this is a lexicon model (for ontologies, of course, but still we are at the lexical level), I would be inclined to think that the most appropriate term is translation, but I am open to change my mind... :) >> >> OK, so why not having "InterlingualVariant" as a subClass of "TermVariant" (instead of TerminologyVariant) and then >> Translation and CulturalEquivalent and "CulturalParaphase" as subclasses of InterlingualVariant. >> >> Would that be appropriate? >> >> >> >>> As for the types of translation we may account for, I would talk of "equivalents", but not identify "translations" exclusivly and explicitly with "literal translations". I was trying to make this clear during out last telco, but maybe I failed... :) That is why I was proposing direct equivalents, to distinguish them from cultural equivalents. >> Fair enough, if you are arguing for dropping the "literal" I am fine. >> >>> As for the question in your e-mail referring to "paraphrase", yes, I think we could put it that way... >>> Best, >>> Elena >>> >>> El 13/02/2014 10:02, Philipp Cimiano escribió: >>>> Hi Elena, all, >>>> >>>> I have updated the wiki reflecting the discussion of last week; however, I have not introduced SenseRelations explicitly yet. I am not sure we should. >>>> >>>> In any case, we agree in principle on the categories mentioned by you Elena, but I have one question on the lexical equivalent: this is essentially a paraphrase, right? >>>> >>>> Philipp. >>>> >>>> Am 07.02.14 17:27, schrieb Elena Montiel Ponsoda: >>>>> Dear John, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the summary (Philipp, do not stay away... we missed you... ;)). >>>>> >>>>> Regarding the Translation part, I think we had a nice discussion, but we need to work a little bit more on that. >>>>> I tend to think of Term Variants as within the same language (intra-lingua), and Translations between languages (inter-lingua). For this reason, I am not so sure I would like to consider Translation a Term Variant, but I will further think about it... :) >>>>> >>>>> In a paper we at UPM just got accepted at the LREC conference, we were proposing 3 different types of translation equivalents. >>>>> direct equivalent (what people normally understad as "pure translation"): The two terms describe semantically equivalent entities that refer to entities that exist in both cultures and languages. E.g. surrogate mother, madre de alquiler, mère porteuse. It is true that they could further be considered dimensional variants, since each language/culture emphasizes a different aspect of the concept. >>>>> cultural equivalent: Typically, the two terms describe entities that are not semantically but pragmatically equivalent, since they describe similar situations in different cultures and languages. E.g., “Ecole Normal†(FR) “Teachers college†(EN). The Prime Minister and Busdeskanzler example would also be valid here. And I think this is the type of link or cross-lingual alignment you would use in Interlingual Indexes for WordNets when no "direct equivalent" in available. >>>>> lexical equivalent: It is said of those terms in different languages that usually point to the same entity, but one of the verbalizes the original term by using target language words. E.g., “Ecole Normal†(FR) “(French) Normal School†(EN). The concept of Normal School does not exist in England, but English people have verbalized it in English. >>>>> >>>>> Does it make sense? >>>>> We will also work on this and update the wiki with examples/code accordingly. >>>>> Have a nice weekend! >>>>> Elena. >>>>> >>>>> El 07/02/2014 16:59, Philipp Cimiano escribió: >>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>> >>>>>> very nice, it seems that the telco was very productive without me, I should consider staying away now and then ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> I will work this into the current document next week. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Philipp. >>>>>> >>>>>> Am 07.02.14 16:29, schrieb John P. McCrae: >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So today at the telco we had myself, Paul, Francesca, Elena and Lupe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We discussed based on Philipp's proposal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I propose we go with the following four variants + translation: >>>>>>> 1) FormVariant: Relation between two forms of one lexical entry >>>>>>> 2) LexicalVariant: Relation between two lexical entries that are related by some well-defined string-operation (e.g. creating an initialism like in FAO) >>>>>>> 3) TerminlogicalVariant: Relation between two lexical senses (with the same reference) of two lexical entries; the lexical entries are thus uniquely determined; the senses might have different contextual and pragmatic conditions (register, etc.) >>>>>>> 4) SemanticVariant: As 3) Relation between senses with references that are ontologically related, either by subsumption or are children of a common superconcept (see my paella and risotto example) >>>>>>> 5) Translation: As with 3), but involving entries from different languages. >>>>>>> So we would have one relation between forms (FormVariant), one relation between lexical entries (LexicalVariant), and three relations at the sense level (TerminologicalVariant, SemanticVariant and Translation). >>>>>>> We might think about introducing a SenseRelation as a superclass of TerminologicalVariant, SemanticVariant and Translation. Hypernym and Hyponym would also be a SenseRelation in this sense. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The discussion was as follows: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Form variants: We discussed the need to distinguish form (inflectional) variants as opposed to lexical (entry) variants. The primary reason for this was to separate variation between LexicalEntrys and Form (as defined in the core). It was felt that the distinction between form and lexical variant was too fine-grained and that the modelling of this as variants is probably not appropriate. For example, if we consider >>>>>>> >>>>>>> :Cat a LexicalEntry >>>>>>> ontolex:canonicalForm :Cat#CanonicalForm (writtenRep "cat"@eng), >>>>>>> ontolex:otherForm :Cat#PluralForm (writtenRep "cats"@eng) . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then modelling the relationship as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> :Cat#CanonicalForm ontolex:plural :Cat#PluralForm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is inferior to (especially in the case that there are large number of inflections of a single lemma, such as an Italian verb) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> :Cat#CanonicalForm ontolex:number ontolex:singular . >>>>>>> :Cat#PluralForm ontolex:number ontolex:plural . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For these reasons, it was preferred not to introduce form variants >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Term(inological)Variants/SemanticVariant: We agreed with the idea of introducing a superclass SenseRelation subsuming both TermVariants and SemanticVariants as follows >>>>>>> TermVariants have the same reference (e.g., diachronic, diatopic etc.) >>>>>>> SemanticVariants have different references (e.g., antonymy, "similar", (maybe?) hypernymy) >>>>>>> It was also suggested to shorten the name TerminologicalVariant to TermVariant >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Translation: We discussed the idea of distinguishing between (Lemma/Term) Translation and Culturally-Equivalent Translation by saying Translation is a TermVariant and Culturally-Equivalent Translation is a Semantic Variant. >>>>>>> It was suggested that we consider introducing a class MultilingualVariant* subsuming Translation and C.E.T. and subsumed by SenseRelation, for relations between languages, this would also include broader/narrower cross-lingual alignments as used in Interlingual Indexes for WordNets etc. >>>>>>> * or cross-lingual variant or inter-lingual variant >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I attach a diagram to show the proposal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> John >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: +49 521 106 12249 >>>>>> Fax: +49 521 106 12412 >>>>>> Mail: cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de >>>>>> >>>>>> Forschungsbau Intelligente Systeme (FBIIS) >>>>>> Raum 2.307 >>>>>> Universität Bielefeld >>>>>> Inspiration 1 >>>>>> 33619 Bielefeld >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Elena Montiel-Ponsoda >>>>> Ontology Engineering Group (OEG) >>>>> Departamento de Inteligencia Artificial >>>>> Escuela Técnica Superior de Ingenieros Informáticos >>>>> Campus de Montegancedo s/n >>>>> Boadilla del Monte-28660 Madrid, España >>>>> www.oeg-upm.net >>>>> Tel. (+34) 91 336 36 70 >>>>> Fax (+34) 91 352 48 19 >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano >>>> >>>> Phone: +49 521 106 12249 >>>> Fax: +49 521 106 12412 >>>> Mail: cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de >>>> >>>> Forschungsbau Intelligente Systeme (FBIIS) >>>> Raum 2.307 >>>> Universität Bielefeld >>>> Inspiration 1 >>>> 33619 Bielefeld >>> >>> -- >>> Elena Montiel-Ponsoda >>> Ontology Engineering Group (OEG) >>> Departamento de Inteligencia Artificial >>> Escuela Técnica Superior de Ingenieros Informáticos >>> Campus de Montegancedo s/n >>> Boadilla del Monte-28660 Madrid, España >>> www.oeg-upm.net >>> Tel. (+34) 91 336 36 70 >>> Fax (+34) 91 352 48 19 >> >> >> -- >> >> Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano >> >> Phone: +49 521 106 12249 >> Fax: +49 521 106 12412 >> Mail: cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de >> >> Forschungsbau Intelligente Systeme (FBIIS) >> Raum 2.307 >> Universität Bielefeld >> Inspiration 1 >> 33619 Bielefeld > > > -- > > Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano > > Phone: +49 521 106 12249 > Fax: +49 521 106 12412 > Mail: cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de > > Forschungsbau Intelligente Systeme (FBIIS) > Raum 2.307 > Universität Bielefeld > Inspiration 1 > 33619 Bielefeld -- Gilles Sérasset GETALP-LIG BP 53 - F-38041 Grenoble Cedex 9 Phone: +33 4 76 51 43 80 Fax: +33 4 76 63 56 86
Received on Thursday, 20 February 2014 19:40:14 UTC