- From: Philipp Cimiano <cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de>
- Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 16:22:15 +0100
- To: public-ontolex@w3.org
- Message-ID: <52FCE327.6030903@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de>
Hi Elena,
just to clarify intuitions. I am calling a Translation something
which preserves the reference (no matter if literal or not).
So according to what I have now it holds that:
Class: var:Translation
SubclassOf:
ontolex:InterlingualVariant
ontolex:TermVariant
rdfs:comment "The relation between two lexical senses in different languages the references of which are the same."@en
So this means that Translation is a relation between two Lexical Senses
in different languages the reference of which is the same.
On the other hand, CulturalEquivalent (or simply Equivalent!) is defined
as follows:
Class: var:CulturalEquivalent
SubclassOf:
ontolex:InterlingualVariant
ontolex:SemanticVariant
rdfs:comment "The relation between two lexical senses in different languages the references of which are directly ontologically related either through subsumption or via a shared superconcept."@en
i.e. the references are directly ontologically related, does this make
sense?
Philipp.
Am 13.02.14 16:10, schrieb Philipp Cimiano:
> Hi Elena,
>
> see below
>
> Am 13.02.14 13:13, schrieb Elena Montiel Ponsoda:
>> Dear Philipp,
>>
>> Thanks for the updates.
>> I have direclty modified the text in the specification (maybe I
>> should not?), but we can still reconsider this...
>> On the one hand, I thought it is important to specify already at the
>> introduction that there is one type of variation that is established
>> between LexicalEntries (i.e., define LexicalVariants), how do you see it?
>
> Yes fine, I should remove the restriction from Variants that requires
> LexicalSense, I will do it now.
>> On the other, I was not so happy with the "terminology" used when
>> dealing with cross-lingual variants, specifically when stating that
>> Translations are literal translations...
> Fair enough, if the idea is removing "literal" I am agnostic ;-)
>
>> From the Translation discipline perspective, this would be
>> problematic, IMHO.
>>
>> * I think we should refer to them as Translations or Interlingual
>> variants (in general). That is what people interested in
>> multilinguality will be looking for, I think. If you think that
>> the MultiWordNet community would be happier with Inter-lingual
>> variant is fine, but the translation or terminology community
>> will be looking for "translation". Would it be feasible to keep
>> both denominations? Since this is a lexicon model (for
>> ontologies, of course, but still we are at the lexical level), I
>> would be inclined to think that the most appropriate term is
>> translation, but I am open to change my mind... :)
>>
>
> OK, so why not having "InterlingualVariant" as a subClass of
> "TermVariant" (instead of TerminologyVariant) and then
> Translation and CulturalEquivalent and "CulturalParaphase" as
> subclasses of InterlingualVariant.
>
> Would that be appropriate?
>
>
>
>> * As for the types of translation we may account for, I would talk
>> of "equivalents", but not identify "translations" exclusivly and
>> explicitly with "literal translations". I was trying to make this
>> clear during out last telco, but maybe I failed... :) That is why
>> I was proposing direct equivalents, to distinguish them from
>> cultural equivalents.
>>
> Fair enough, if you are arguing for dropping the "literal" I am fine.
>
>> As for the question in your e-mail referring to "paraphrase", yes, I
>> think we could put it that way...
>> Best,
>> Elena
>>
>> El 13/02/2014 10:02, Philipp Cimiano escribió:
>>> Hi Elena, all,
>>>
>>> I have updated the wiki reflecting the discussion of last week;
>>> however, I have not introduced SenseRelations explicitly yet. I am
>>> not sure we should.
>>>
>>> In any case, we agree in principle on the categories mentioned by
>>> you Elena, but I have one question on the lexical equivalent: this
>>> is essentially a paraphrase, right?
>>>
>>> Philipp.
>>>
>>> Am 07.02.14 17:27, schrieb Elena Montiel Ponsoda:
>>>> Dear John,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the summary (Philipp, do not stay away... we missed
>>>> you... ;)).
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the Translation part, I think we had a nice discussion,
>>>> but we need to work a little bit more on that.
>>>> I tend to think of Term Variants as within the same language
>>>> (intra-lingua), and Translations between languages (inter-lingua).
>>>> For this reason, I am not so sure I would like to consider
>>>> Translation a Term Variant, but I will further think about it... :)
>>>>
>>>> In a paper we at UPM just got accepted at the LREC conference, we
>>>> were proposing 3 different types of *translation equivalents*.
>>>>
>>>> 1. *direct equivalent *(what people normally understad as "pure
>>>> translation"): The two terms describe semantically equivalent
>>>> entities that refer to entities that exist in both cultures and
>>>> languages. E.g. surrogate mother, madre de alquiler, mère
>>>> porteuse. It is true that they could further be considered
>>>> *dimensional variants*, since each language/culture emphasizes
>>>> a different aspect of the concept.
>>>> 2. *cultural equivalent*: Typically, the two terms describe
>>>> entities that are not semantically but pragmatically
>>>> equivalent, since they describe similar situations in different
>>>> cultures and languages. E.g., “Ecole Normal” (FR) “Teachers
>>>> college” (EN). The Prime Minister and Busdeskanzler example
>>>> would also be valid here. And I think this is the type of *link
>>>> or cross-lingual alignment you would use in **Interlingual
>>>> Indexes for WordNets when no "direct equivalent" in available*.
>>>> 3. *lexical equivalent*: It is said of those terms in different
>>>> languages that usually point to the same entity, but one of the
>>>> verbalizes the original term by using target language words.
>>>> E.g., “Ecole Normal” (FR) “(French) Normal School” (EN). The
>>>> concept of Normal School does not exist in England, but English
>>>> people have verbalized it in English.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does it make sense?
>>>> We will also work on this and update the wiki with examples/code
>>>> accordingly.
>>>> Have a nice weekend!
>>>> Elena.
>>>>
>>>> El 07/02/2014 16:59, Philipp Cimiano escribió:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> very nice, it seems that the telco was very productive without me,
>>>>> I should consider staying away now and then ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I will work this into the current document next week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Philipp.
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 07.02.14 16:29, schrieb John P. McCrae:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So today at the telco we had myself, Paul, Francesca, Elena and Lupe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We discussed based on Philipp's proposal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose we go with the following four variants + translation:
>>>>>> 1) FormVariant: Relation between two forms of one lexical entry
>>>>>> 2) LexicalVariant: Relation between two lexical entries that
>>>>>> are related by some well-defined string-operation (e.g.
>>>>>> creating an initialism like in FAO)
>>>>>> 3) TerminlogicalVariant: Relation between two lexical senses
>>>>>> (with the same reference) of two lexical entries; the lexical
>>>>>> entries are thus uniquely determined; the senses might have
>>>>>> different contextual and pragmatic conditions (register, etc.)
>>>>>> 4) SemanticVariant: As 3) Relation between senses with
>>>>>> references that are ontologically related, either by
>>>>>> subsumption or are children of a common superconcept (see my
>>>>>> paella and risotto example)
>>>>>> 5) Translation: As with 3), but involving entries from
>>>>>> different languages.
>>>>>> So we would have one relation between forms (FormVariant),
>>>>>> one relation between lexical entries (LexicalVariant), and
>>>>>> three relations at the sense level (TerminologicalVariant,
>>>>>> SemanticVariant and Translation).
>>>>>> We might think about introducing a SenseRelation as a
>>>>>> superclass of TerminologicalVariant, SemanticVariant and
>>>>>> Translation. Hypernym and Hyponym would also be a
>>>>>> SenseRelation in this sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The discussion was as follows:
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> *
>>>>>> *Form variants*: We discussed the need to distinguish form
>>>>>> (inflectional) variants as opposed to lexical (entry) variants.
>>>>>> The primary reason for this was to separate variation between
>>>>>> LexicalEntrys and Form (as defined in the core). It was felt that
>>>>>> the distinction between form and lexical variant was too
>>>>>> fine-grained and that the modelling of this as variants is
>>>>>> probably not appropriate. For example, if we consider
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :Cat a LexicalEntry
>>>>>> ontolex:canonicalForm :Cat#CanonicalForm (writtenRep "cat"@eng),
>>>>>> ontolex:otherForm :Cat#PluralForm (writtenRep "cats"@eng) .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then modelling the relationship as
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :Cat#CanonicalForm ontolex:plural :Cat#PluralForm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is inferior to (especially in the case that there are large
>>>>>> number of inflections of a single lemma, such as an Italian verb)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :Cat#CanonicalForm ontolex:number ontolex:singular .
>>>>>> :Cat#PluralForm ontolex:number ontolex:plural .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For these reasons, it was preferred not to introduce form variants
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Term(inological)Variants/SemanticVariant: *We agreed with the
>>>>>> idea of introducing a superclass SenseRelation subsuming both
>>>>>> TermVariants and SemanticVariants as follows
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * TermVariants have the same reference (e.g., diachronic,
>>>>>> diatopic etc.)
>>>>>> * SemanticVariants have different references (e.g., antonymy,
>>>>>> "similar", (maybe?) hypernymy)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was also suggested to shorten the name TerminologicalVariant
>>>>>> to TermVariant
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Translation: *We discussed the idea of distinguishing between
>>>>>> (Lemma/Term) *Translation* and *Culturally-Equivalent Translation
>>>>>> *by saying *Translation * is a *TermVariant * and
>>>>>> *Culturally-Equivalent Translation* is a *Semantic Variant.*
>>>>>> It was suggested that we consider introducing a class
>>>>>> *MultilingualVariant** subsuming *Translation *and*C.E.T. *and
>>>>>> subsumed by *SenseRelation, *for relations between languages,
>>>>>> this would also include broader/narrower cross-lingual alignments
>>>>>> as used in Interlingual Indexes for WordNets etc.
>>>>>> * or cross-lingual variant or inter-lingual variant
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I attach a diagram to show the proposal
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone: +49 521 106 12249
>>>>> Fax: +49 521 106 12412
>>>>> Mail:cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de
>>>>>
>>>>> Forschungsbau Intelligente Systeme (FBIIS)
>>>>> Raum 2.307
>>>>> Universität Bielefeld
>>>>> Inspiration 1
>>>>> 33619 Bielefeld
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Elena Montiel-Ponsoda
>>>> Ontology Engineering Group (OEG)
>>>> Departamento de Inteligencia Artificial
>>>> Escuela Técnica Superior de Ingenieros Informáticos
>>>> Campus de Montegancedo s/n
>>>> Boadilla del Monte-28660 Madrid, España
>>>> www.oeg-upm.net
>>>> Tel. (+34) 91 336 36 70
>>>> Fax (+34) 91 352 48 19
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano
>>>
>>> Phone: +49 521 106 12249
>>> Fax: +49 521 106 12412
>>> Mail:cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de
>>>
>>> Forschungsbau Intelligente Systeme (FBIIS)
>>> Raum 2.307
>>> Universität Bielefeld
>>> Inspiration 1
>>> 33619 Bielefeld
>>
>> --
>> Elena Montiel-Ponsoda
>> Ontology Engineering Group (OEG)
>> Departamento de Inteligencia Artificial
>> Escuela Técnica Superior de Ingenieros Informáticos
>> Campus de Montegancedo s/n
>> Boadilla del Monte-28660 Madrid, España
>> www.oeg-upm.net
>> Tel. (+34) 91 336 36 70
>> Fax (+34) 91 352 48 19
>
>
> --
>
> Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano
>
> Phone: +49 521 106 12249
> Fax: +49 521 106 12412
> Mail:cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de
>
> Forschungsbau Intelligente Systeme (FBIIS)
> Raum 2.307
> Universität Bielefeld
> Inspiration 1
> 33619 Bielefeld
--
Prof. Dr. Philipp Cimiano
Phone: +49 521 106 12249
Fax: +49 521 106 12412
Mail: cimiano@cit-ec.uni-bielefeld.de
Forschungsbau Intelligente Systeme (FBIIS)
Raum 2.307
Universität Bielefeld
Inspiration 1
33619 Bielefeld
Received on Thursday, 13 February 2014 15:22:49 UTC