- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:13:28 -0800
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Summary:
- Reviewed WAF draft for media queries features for widgets
http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-vmmf/Overview.html
Comments include that these features should be scoped more broadly
since they are generally applicable; that the 'all' value seems
redundant and unnecessary; that the names and descriptions are
unclear; that there seem to be multiple feature axes covered by the
same query; and that 'mini' and 'maximize' are grammatically
inconsistent. Daniel will send comments on behalf of the WG:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0116.html
- Discussed suggestion for vendor-neutral draft prefix. No agreement
to introduce one.
- Discussed namespace rule in object model. Noted that current method
of handling at-rules is likely to introduce accidental conflicts.
- Reviewed Simon's animation-fill-rule proposal:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0010.html
The property name is confusing, but the proposal seems otherwise
good, and will be added to the Animations draft with a note about
possible renaming.
====== Full minutes below ======
Present:
David Baron
Bert Bos
Arron Eicholz
Elika Etemad
Simon Fraser
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman
Brad Kemper
Chris Lilley
Peter Linss
Leif Arne Storset
Steve Zilles
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-CSS-irc
Scribe: fantasai
Administrative
--------------
Daniel: Extra agenda items?
Peter: If you're planning to come to F2F, please remember to fill out
questionnaire so dsinger has an accurate count
<plinss> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/32061/css-wg-cupertino-2010/
Daniel: jdaggett was unable to make call, and so we will defer fonts
discussion to next week
Review of WAF draft Media Queries feature for widgets
-----------------------------------------------------
<glazou> http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-vmmf/Overview.html
Daniel: Used to detect view mode of widget: minimized, maximized,
fullscreen, etc.
Chris: This should not be restricted to widgets, there are plenty of
other cases you'd want this info
Daniel: That is my comment also. I think all these mode could apply
generally
Daniel: Should live outside of widgets
dbaron: The all value doesn't seem especially useful, since it's always true
?: Like @media all
dbaron: Might as well not query on feature
<ChrisL> maybe all means "I don't know"
dbaron: Some of these have intersections
dbaron: e.g. I can see both fullscreen and application being true
dbaron: and fullscreen and not-application being true
dbaron: So it seems like there are two different axes here
<ChrisL> application+maximized, application+mini are sensible combinations
Daniel: yeah, application doesn't seem to be a view mode
discussion of various combinations
Chris: There's no value for a normal window, that's not fullscreen
Bert: I thought that was what 'application' meant
dbaron: Seems some of these definitions could be a little clearer
Brad: If they changed application to windowed, it would make more
sense to me
Chris: They might be saying something about the presence of chrome
Bert: Not sure you can always tell the difference between application
and floating
Bert: Application may have chrome added itself, or chrome added by WM
Simon: Another difference is that for floating, the viewport background
is transparent
Brad: Are Opera's widgets floating, then?
Simon: Haven't seen those, but dashboard on Mac is like that
Leif: They're not transparent, but other criteria seem to fit
<ChrisL> floating seems to apply to things like the classic round
clock widget
<sylvaing> how much chrome is chrome ?
Daniel: Ok, that's all about comments on values?
Steve: Looking at this thing, it seems to be a weird combination of
CSS features
Steve: Background seems it ought to come from content -- it's transparent
or it isn't
<oyvind> opera widgets do have transparent backgrounds I think
Steve: in a CSS window it's normally transparent
Steve: I find it hard to figure out besides maximize and mini what the
other things are trying to say
<ChrisL> from their definitions, "The chrome comprises the visible parts
of the user agent that do not depend on the content (e.g. tool
bars, title bars, menus). " which seems to disallw pseudo-chrome
drawn by the content itself (its own menus etc)
Steve: And wondering why these aren't CSS properties
Steve: This discussion seems very similar to the one we were having on fit
Simon: These are media /queries/. You're not describing what the content
looks like
Simon: you're querying the environment
Sylvain: You can write media queries based on viewport space you have,
but this is a little highger level
Daniel: You can write media queries to check size of viewport, but not
that the size of viewport matches size of screen
?: Do people want to query whether the window is visible?
Sylvain: You get into is my window visible, do I have focus, etc.
Sylvain: I kinda like it, but it's not exactly querying the media
Daniel: We already discussed adding values that are more system-based
to Media queries
Sylvain: I can see the value, but is it something solely through CSS?
Sylvain: I can see you wnting to access this event-based
fantasai points out that Media Queries isn't a *CSS* spec per se, and
it's used in HTML5 and DOM apis etc too
Steve: The other thing I was hearing was the possible lack of orthogonality
Steve: Of the distinctions between minimized and fullscreen vs. whether
chrome is present or not
Simon: Another question -- are these orthogonal to the media type?
Simon: E.g. if I'm in projection mode, do I assume i'm fullscreen?
Simon: Is it possible to be floating but also have a media type of projection?
Simon: I think the spec needs to say something about how those two interact
Daniel: I think projection could imply fullscreen, based on the definitions
in CSS
Sylvain: Opera uses projection mode when fullscreened
Daniel: maximize also make sense, mini makes sense...
Daniel: The only one that doesn't make much sense in a browser would be
floating
Chris: Unless you're a widget in Opera
Daniel: but then your'e a widget
Chris: The browser is running, but instead of producing a normal window it's
showing a widget
Bert: Web pages on the desktop don't have a background either
?: would be fullscreen
Bert: Not necessarily
Steve: Might make sense for someone from the widgets group to join our call
Chris: We're painting ourselves in a corner here, we're saying they're
general and should be applied everywhere, then saying they're not
quite general...
Steve: maybe the answer is to work with them to come up with values that
are general enough to use in the general case but still answer
their needs
Daniel: I will make a response to WepApps group summarizing what we just said.
Daniel: Any other comments?
ACTION: Daniel Respond to WAF
Steve: one other comment --
Steve: To the extent CSS can control what the OS thinks it's doing.. could
get a feedback loop
Chris: The value is not maintained live
dbaron: It is maintained live
Daniel: If you query the background, and set it in CSS
fantasai: I think if you are querying the background, you would be checking
the color of the canvas itself, not the background assigned to be
painted (or not painted) on the canvas
<oyvind> "To avoid circular dependencies, it is never necessary to apply
the style sheet in order to evaluate expressions" --MQ
Steve: Need to define interaction of CSS settings and the queries
Daniel: Next item
vendor prefixes
---------------
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0235.html
Daniel: I did not follow the whole thread on that
Daniel: I think the way we handle vendor prefixes in CSS is too monolithic
Daniel: We only remove them when one complete spec moves to CR
<ChrisL> rounded corners!!
Daniel: While some properties could remove prefix long before that
Daniel: I think it should be decision of the group
Bert: I don't think we should not create an extra process in addition to
what's provided by W3C
Daniel: We have many examples of live properties shipped in browsers that
web authors must manipulate in four or five flavors
Daniel: What we did with border-radius, border-radius was at least partially
interoperable in most browsers but people had to use five variants
<ChrisL> we have combinations of ultra-stable and rapidly changing properties
in the same spec. We don't want to split into smaller and smaller
specs all the time
Daniel: When the group decides that a property is stable and interoperable
enough, then the prefix can be removed
Bert: Then you need another WD
Simon: It would be an annotation in the existing draft
Daniel: Or have a prefix for the WG, but something for all browsers
Chris: That would allow you to change the name
<ChrisL> stability annotations in the draft. like ednotes point out areas
of instability; mark certain properties as very stable and unlikely
to be changed
Simon: Could allow changes in syntax then
Steve: Would make one comment -- point of CR is that a) you've had
significant public review, not just wg review, and b) you're ready
for implementation
Daniel: But in some cases implementations precede CR by years
...
Steve: If you change the syntax, you'll need to change the prefix
Sylvain: My concern is that you're trying to eliminate the prefixes, but
might wind up increasing prefixes.
Sylvain: If implementations start under their own prefixes for very
experimental things, you'll wind up with a prefix on top of
all the others.
Simon: I don't think the browser ship cycle is fast enough to make this
useful. We don't drop prefixes as soon as we got to CR
Sylvain: border-radius is a good example ...
Daniel: Users tend to use the most recent browser versions
Daniel: border-radius is not the only example
Daniel: 2D Transformations is only 2 years old, but has a lot of
implementations
Sylvain: The author has to remember which browsers are -vendor-, -w3c-,
or no prefix
Sylvain: They have to track versioning to get the right result
<dbaron> Yeah, it's not clear to me that this proposal will make things
less complicated for authors rather than more.
Sylvain: We're just adding this uber prefix to the mix, but it's not going
to remove other ones at least not soon
Brad: Yeah, I'll wind up with -moz, -ms, and -w3c
Sylvain: What I'm trying to point out that the goal is to replace what
is out there today.
Sylvain: And if that's the goal, then we have to also remove vendor-specific
properties
Daniel: If I listen to Brad, he has to support vendor prefixes no matter
what we do
Daniel: I think that's all we have to say for now on this topic.
Daniel: Is it something we want to discuss again at the F2F?
Daniel: Ok, no consensus. Let's move on
Namespace rule in object model
------------------------------
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0006.html
Daniel: I think Anne answered my points
Peter: The way we do numbering scheme in rule types in the object model
is very fragile
Peter: Having sequential integer values... looking at WebKit's
implementation, they add values for their experimental stuff
<anne> I guess in theory we could do away with .type altogether
Peter: Paged Media adds many new at-rules
Peter: We need some way of compartmentalizing modules
<anne> You could just do typeof...
Daniel: Does it require dicussion at Hypertext coordination group?
<anne> glazou, I don't think so; since the CSS WG mints new at-rules we
can also hand out numbers for them
<anne> glazou, implementors should just use values >1000 or some such
<glazou> anne: still, coordination is needed to avoid collisions
Animations fill modes follow-up
-------------------------------
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0010.html
Simon: I sent out a revised proposal
Simon: Little bit of feedback, but people seem happy with it generally
Simon: Anybody have comments on that?
Bert: I haven't understood it well, but it seems to me that before and
after the animation there are other properties that say what style
it has
Simon: So what happens here is that during the animation, the animation
rules override
Simon: The animation is active when the animation name property is in scope
Simon: The animation is active for the duration ....
Simon: The effect of the animation goes away when the animation ends
Simon: With fill-mode, you are extending the effect of the animation into
the future until you remove the animation name property
Simon: Does that make sense?
Bert: I don't know if it's really necessary. It sounds like there's now
two ways to specify the style of something, that's one way too many
Simon: Authors often use JS to add and remove animations, and without
this it's hard for them to know that they've avoided visual glitches
<dbaron> I think this sounds fine, modulo the revisions we discussed to
fix it so that it defines the correct keyframe to be extended
in the presence of some of the other properties
Daniel: I had this problem when I wrote an animation
Simon: Would like to say one othe rthing about htis. If you're using a
fill-mode to extend the animation, and your'e using computedStyle,
you'll get the style from those key frames
Simon: It ... an API that let's you know where the style is coming from
Simon: It's not really obvious where those styles are coming from
Simon: So an API like currentStyle might have problems with this
dbaron: There's also API requests to say which rules match
Chris: How do you identify the rules?
dbaron: by object: there are rule objects in the OM
Daniel: Ok, what's the next step?
Simon: Add animation-fill-mode to the animations draft.
Simon: Then at some point look at that draft and decide if we want to move
forward on that
Steve: If I understand the meaning, it is extending the animation. Why
is it called fill-mode and not something related to duration?
Simon: You might have an animation that repeats 3 times of 1 second each.
Simon: Fill-mode doesn't say what the duration is, it says how you finish (?)
Steve: I'm just concerned about fill having a completely different meaning
in the rest of CSS and SVG
Simon: That's a fair comment, we cna try to think of alternate names
dbaron: I think I had a similar confusion when I first read the spec.
dbaron: I thought it had something to do with repetition
<ChrisL> yes, SVG has to distinguish 2 attrs (on different elements) both
called fill. fill is an awful name for the extended duration.
dbaron: Maybe the spec text could explain it better?
Sylvain: Basically it persiststs the DOM in the state of its last keyframe,
right?
Simon: Yes
Sylvain: Yeah, the naming threw me off too
Chris: SVG would love a better name
Simon: suggestions?
animation-finish-mode?
animation-persist
<ChrisL> endmode
<ChrisL> persistence
Simon: It also has a backwards-extend ability
... [missed explanation] ...
<Simon> fill-mode: backwards will cause the first keyframe to be applied
when animation-delay is non-zero
Daniel: We seem to agree on the revised proposal, so let's add that to the
spec and leave the research for a better name in the background
fantasai: could add an issue not to the spec
Steve: I think if you follow dbaron's suggestion to improve the text, you
might find the name falls out of that process
Steve: It does sound like a duration envelope
<ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL/smil-timing.html#adef-fill
Steve: Some examples with the delays, etc. would help
Daniel: Anything else on this topic?
Administrative Part II
----------------------
Daniel: We have only five remaining minutes
Daniel: Not enough time for other agenda items. Other suggestions?
dbaron: Reminder about time change next week? :)
Daniel: People based in Europe will have to call one hour early
dbaron: The other thing is the travel time change might be one hour smaller
as well
dbaron: depends whether you travel Saturday or Sunday
Steve: you should warn jdaggett
Daniel: F2F is approaching, still gathering agenda items
Daniel: Please send proposals and fill in the wiki page
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/cupertino-2010
Chris: Wrt SVG joint meeting -- there was a DOM event that some people
were planning to come out for
Chris: but it has been cancelled, so we will not be able to do a joint SVG meeting
Chris: We should look to TPAC for joint discussions
Meeting closed.
<RRSAgent> http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-CSS-minutes.html
Received on Thursday, 11 March 2010 20:14:07 UTC