W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > February 2001

Re: Make Microsoft follow the spec.

From: Frank Boumphrey <bckman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:23:14 -0500
Message-ID: <001601c0a191$fe0145c0$4ccf79a5@preferreduser>
To: "Jeffrey Yasskin" <jyasskin@appcomp.com>, <www-style@w3.org>
As a web surfer, I'd rather use a browser that doesn't blow up when an
> author forgets a </td> or mistypes a ':'

But as a developer I would much rather use a browser that _forces_ me
to write good code.

If I write "good" code then I have a legitimate bitch if it does not
display properly on a browser.

As far as I can see, with one small exception (The style sheet
property cursor, where IE5 PC but not IE5 Mac supports the value
'hand' rather than 'pointer', unfortunately from my point of view a
very significant property) I think that IE 5.5 supports most of the
standards they claim to support (Level 1 CSS, DOM1, HTML Strict)

> I do not believe Microsoft when they say that their "bugs" were
> They were a conscious effort to win market share

Again 'bugs' are where standards are not followed, or an unexpected
result is obtained when following the standard, NOT where proprietry
(read experimental) properties are employed, or where a browser is lax
in enforcing correctness.

With regard to the latter, when operating in an XML mode IE5 is very
correct, it refuses to display non-valid code, the last time I checked
with Nn6, it would display bad XML, which is not allowed by the XML
1.) spec.. They may have changed this.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Yasskin" <jyasskin@appcomp.com>
To: <www-style@w3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 6:33 PM
Subject: RE: Make Microsoft follow the spec.

> You know, there's very little reason from Microsoft's perspective to
> their FCR bugs. the W3C is Very unlikely to ever add an '=' that
> something different from ':' and if IE displays pages better, then
> will use it more. Sure it would be "honorable" to follow the rules,
> from a business standpoint, they have no reason to. The browser that
> people read pages by stupid authors will be used more, not the
browser that
> forces authors to be smart.
> I do not believe Microsoft when they say that their "bugs" were
> They were a conscious effort to win market share. And it's going to
> too. As a web surfer, I'd rather use a browser that doesn't blow up
when an
> author forgets a </td> or mistypes a ':'.
> Jeffrey Yasskin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jan Roland Eriksson [mailto:jrexon@newsguy.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:08 PM
> To: www-html@w3.org; www-style@w3c.org
> Subject: Re: Make Microsoft follow the spec.
> On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:36:27 -0800, Chris Wilson
> wrote:
> [crossed to www-style@w3c.org and f'ups set]
> >Jan Roland Eriksson [mailto:jrexon@newsguy.com] wrote:
> >>What I do know is that MS has deliberately shot a big hole in the
> >>of the CSS "FCR" [Forward Compatibility Rules]...
> >Unless you work for Microsoft, please don't make presumptions about
what we
> >did or didn't do "deliberately".  Bugs in our CSS implementation
that cause
> >us to fail forward compatibility tests were not intentional.
> I will take your word for that.
> Which then brings up a conclusion...
>   "If there was never a decision made in a board room,
>    or over an internal conference room table, to go down
>    the route that lead to 'FCP' violations in IE4/5+, then
>    the only thing that remains to be 'put under the lupe'
>    is the inner workings of MS quality check procedures for
>    delivered products."
> I like to think that MS programmers are good, enthusiastic, and
> with few other personal wishes but to be able to "show off" their
> personal skills and qualities as to how they can fill the requests
> their project management level.
> So where did it go wrong? I mean if a faulty CSS declaration saying
> 'font-size=12' is to be the same as a correct 'font-size: 12px;'
> declaration, while available CSS specs says nothing about that,
> something needs to be fixed, and it's not the CSS specs that needs
> fixing IMO.
> But now the "cat has been out of the bag" for some time and common
> people that develops an interest for markup and CSS tends to go with
> flow, i.e. what "works" for them in their own clients.
> Following that 'ciwas' will "for ever" be filled with questions
>   "Hi! My stylesheet works in IE, does any one now how to work
>    around the 'bugs' in Mozilla/Netscape/Opera?"
> ...(a question to that effect was answered in ciwas as late as
> The final question becomes, does WinIE have the guts to go on to
> itself spec compliant, at least in the areas where it now breaks the
> FCP rules?
> I don't have much hope, but would happily accept a surprise of
> --
> Jan Roland Eriksson <rex@css.nu> .. <URL:http://css.nu/>
Received on Wednesday, 28 February 2001 09:16:07 UTC

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