- From: Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:11:37 -0500
- To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- CC: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>, www-archive <www-archive@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <4F215F19.8040100@w3.org>
On 1/26/2012 5:12 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote: > hi Jeffe, > > Ian has stated in response [1]: > > "I follow it, like everyone else, exactly to the extent that I think it > requires us to do the right thing for the Web. When the process requires > us to do something bad for the Web, I ignore it." > > I say fair play to him and as long as any other participant in the > process can opt out of the process whenever he/she thinks it's "bad > for the Web," and the W3C is OK with that, then we have a level > playing field for all particpants. Noone has a free pass to opt out of the process. As I said in [1], there have been exceptions where Ian has not followed the W3C process and we have successfully worked through disagreements. Noone's choice to "opt out" are blithely ignored by the Chairs. [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0031.html > > but his stament does appear to contradict your statement: > > "he agrees to follow the W3C Process" I don't interpret his statement in the same way you do. I understand your literal interpretation (since he is not following 100% of the rules all of the time it means he is not following the process). As he says in his response to me [2], it is his view that sometimes he follows it more closely than W3C staff. Since I believe that W3C staff follows the process (possibly with some mistakes), I conclude that Hixie believes he follows the process. As he says in [2], he does not claim to. Nonetheless, he does. [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html > > For people such as myself who have invested a lot of time and energy > working within, what is at times a tortuous process, in effecting > change to the HTML5 specification, for what I believe to be the 'right > thing for the Web'. I don't want to see that work undermined and > undone by someone who is in a powerful position, because he or she > thinks they own rights on what is the 'right thing for the Web'. This is a fair concern. If you have specific concerns about your work being "undermined", I hope you are bringing your concerns to the Chairs, to Philippe, and to me. > > > [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html > > > best regards > > Stevef > > On 25 January 2012 23:58, Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org > <mailto:jeff@w3.org>> wrote: > > On 1/25/2012 4:53 PM, Steve Faulkner wrote: >> Hi Philippe, >> >> Ian Hickson wrote: [1] >> >> On Wed, 25 Jan 2012, Philippe Le Hegaret wrote: >> > >> > as a reminder, as editor of several documents for the Web >> Applications >> > and HTML Working Group, you agreed to follow the W3C >> Process, as well as >> > following the HTML Decision Policy of the HTML Working >> Group. If this is >> > no longer the case, you should let the Chairs of those >> Groups aware of >> > this, >> >> The chairs of both groups, as well as yourself, and Jeff, are >> fully aware >> of this already. >> > > Let me say what I am fully aware of: > > 1. Ian has fundamental disagreements with the way that the W3C > process works. He has been very clear about that. > > 2. Nonetheless, for situations that he is wearing his hat as > Editor within a W3C Working Group, he agrees to follow the W3C > Process. Part of the reason is a mutual desire to have HTML work > proceed both in W3C (under its process) and WHATWG (under its > process), and to keep HTML 5 as aligned as possible with HTML LS. > > 3. There is already a consensus that some of the points that he > has made about standardization processes are good points - > although not for the goals of W3C Working Groups. Many of these > points have been adopted for W3C Community Groups which has > different objectives. > > 4. On the whole, the Chairs have reported to me that they are > satisfied that Ian has fulfilled the commitments (point 2 above) > to follow the W3C Process. There have been exceptions which (to > date) we have successfully worked through. > > 5. Ian is so much "bought in" to W3C, that on one occasion where > he thought the Chairs had made a mistake, he actually escalated > the Chairs' decision to the W3C CEO. (nb., after a brief > discussion between the CEO, Chairs, and Editor - all agreed that > the Chairs and Editor would resolve the issue and the CEO did not > enter the HTML 5 Decision Process.) > > > >> -- >> Ian Hickson >> >> >> So, a working group member who plays a pivotal role does not >> agree to follow the W3C Process, as well as follow the HTML >> Decision Policy of the HTML Working Group. > > Hence Ian has been following the W3C Process. > > >> >> >> Why should any of us? >> >> regards >> Stevef >> >> >> On 25 January 2012 11:39, Steve Faulkner >> <faulkner.steve@gmail.com <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi Phillippe, >> >> >> Ian Hickson wrote [1]: >> >> "Nobody really follows the W3C process. Some claim to, others >> (such as >> myself) do not. Being on a W3C list certainly doesn't imply >> anything about >> one's actions with respect to the hallowed Process." >> >> >> I have acted under the assumption that participation in >> working groups is dependent on my agreeing to, and attempting >> in good faith, to abide by W3C process, it appears that I and >> others have been mislead. >> >> >> [1] >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0025.html >> >> >> -- >> with regards >> >> Steve Faulkner >> Technical Director - TPG >> >> www.paciellogroup.com <http://www.paciellogroup.com> | >> www.HTML5accessibility.com >> <http://www.HTML5accessibility.com> | >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner >> <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ >> <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar - >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html >> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> with regards >> >> Steve Faulkner >> Technical Director - TPG >> >> www.paciellogroup.com <http://www.paciellogroup.com> | >> www.HTML5accessibility.com <http://www.HTML5accessibility.com> | >> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner> >> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - >> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ >> <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/> >> Web Accessibility Toolbar - >> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html >> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html> > > > > > -- > with regards > > Steve Faulkner > Technical Director - TPG > > www.paciellogroup.com <http://www.paciellogroup.com> | > www.HTML5accessibility.com <http://www.HTML5accessibility.com> | > www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner> > HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - > dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/> > Web Accessibility Toolbar - > www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
Received on Thursday, 26 January 2012 14:11:47 UTC