W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-archive@w3.org > January 2012

Re: Obsolescence notices on old specifications, again

From: Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 09:11:37 -0500
Message-ID: <4F215F19.8040100@w3.org>
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
CC: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>, www-archive <www-archive@w3.org>
On 1/26/2012 5:12 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
> hi Jeffe,
>
> Ian has stated in response [1]:
>
> "I follow it, like everyone else, exactly to the extent that I think it
> requires us to do the right thing for the Web. When the process requires
> us to do something bad for the Web, I ignore it."
>
> I say fair play to him and as long as any other participant in the 
> process can opt out of the process whenever he/she thinks it's "bad 
> for the Web," and the W3C is OK with that, then we have a level 
> playing field for all particpants.

Noone has a free pass to opt out of the process.  As I said in [1], 
there have been exceptions where Ian has not followed the W3C process 
and we have successfully worked through disagreements.   Noone's choice 
to "opt out" are blithely ignored by the Chairs.

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0031.html

>
> but his stament does appear to contradict your statement:
>
> "he agrees to follow the W3C Process"

I don't interpret his statement in the same way you do.

I understand your literal interpretation (since he is not following 100% 
of the rules all of the time it means he is not following the process).  
As he says in his response to me [2], it is his view that sometimes he 
follows it more closely than W3C staff.  Since I believe that W3C staff 
follows the process (possibly with some mistakes), I conclude that Hixie 
believes he follows the process.  As he says in [2], he does not claim 
to.  Nonetheless, he does.

[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html

>
> For people such as myself who have invested a lot of time and energy 
> working within, what is at times a tortuous process, in effecting 
> change to the HTML5 specification, for what I believe to be the 'right 
> thing for the Web'. I don't want to see that work undermined and 
> undone by someone who is in a powerful position, because he or she 
> thinks they own rights on what is the 'right thing for the Web'.

This is a fair concern.  If you have specific concerns about your work 
being "undermined", I hope you are bringing your concerns to the Chairs, 
to Philippe, and to me.

>
>
> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html
>
>
> best regards
>
> Stevef
>
> On 25 January 2012 23:58, Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org 
> <mailto:jeff@w3.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 1/25/2012 4:53 PM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>>     Hi Philippe,
>>
>>     Ian Hickson wrote: [1]
>>
>>         On Wed, 25 Jan 2012, Philippe Le Hegaret wrote:
>>         >
>>         > as a reminder, as editor of several documents for the Web
>>         Applications
>>         > and HTML Working Group, you agreed to follow the W3C
>>         Process, as well as
>>         > following the HTML Decision Policy of the HTML Working
>>         Group. If this is
>>         > no longer the case, you should let the Chairs of those
>>         Groups aware of
>>         > this,
>>
>>         The chairs of both groups, as well as yourself, and Jeff, are
>>         fully aware
>>         of this already.
>>
>
>     Let me say what I am fully aware of:
>
>     1. Ian has fundamental disagreements with the way that the W3C
>     process works.  He has been very clear about that.
>
>     2. Nonetheless, for situations that he is wearing his hat as
>     Editor within a W3C Working Group, he agrees to follow the W3C
>     Process.  Part of the reason is a mutual desire to have HTML work
>     proceed both in W3C (under its process) and WHATWG (under its
>     process), and to keep HTML 5 as aligned as possible with HTML LS.
>
>     3. There is already a consensus that some of the points that he
>     has made about standardization processes are good points -
>     although not for the goals of W3C Working Groups.  Many of these
>     points have been adopted for W3C Community Groups which has
>     different objectives.
>
>     4. On the whole, the Chairs have reported to me that they are
>     satisfied that Ian has fulfilled the commitments (point 2 above)
>     to follow the W3C Process.  There have been exceptions which (to
>     date) we have successfully worked through.
>
>     5. Ian is so much "bought in" to W3C, that on one occasion where
>     he thought the Chairs had made a mistake, he actually escalated
>     the Chairs' decision to the W3C CEO.  (nb., after a brief
>     discussion between the CEO, Chairs, and Editor - all agreed that
>     the Chairs and Editor would resolve the issue and the CEO did not
>     enter the HTML 5 Decision Process.)
>
>
>
>>         --
>>         Ian Hickson
>>
>>
>>     So, a working group member who plays a pivotal role does not
>>     agree to follow the W3C Process, as well as follow the HTML
>>     Decision Policy of the HTML Working Group.
>
>     Hence Ian has been following the W3C Process.
>
>
>>
>>
>>     Why should any of us?
>>
>>     regards
>>     Stevef
>>
>>
>>     On 25 January 2012 11:39, Steve Faulkner
>>     <faulkner.steve@gmail.com <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi Phillippe,
>>
>>
>>         Ian Hickson wrote [1]:
>>
>>         "Nobody really follows the W3C process. Some claim to, others
>>         (such as
>>         myself) do not. Being on a W3C list certainly doesn't imply
>>         anything about
>>         one's actions with respect to the hallowed Process."
>>
>>
>>         I have acted under the assumption that  participation in
>>         working groups is dependent on my agreeing to, and attempting
>>         in good faith, to abide by W3C process, it appears that I and
>>         others have been mislead.
>>
>>
>>         [1]
>>         http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0025.html
>>
>>
>>         -- 
>>         with regards
>>
>>         Steve Faulkner
>>         Technical Director - TPG
>>
>>         www.paciellogroup.com <http://www.paciellogroup.com> |
>>         www.HTML5accessibility.com
>>         <http://www.HTML5accessibility.com> |
>>         www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>>         <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner>
>>         HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>>         dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>>         <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/>
>>         Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>>         www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>>         <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     with regards
>>
>>     Steve Faulkner
>>     Technical Director - TPG
>>
>>     www.paciellogroup.com <http://www.paciellogroup.com> |
>>     www.HTML5accessibility.com <http://www.HTML5accessibility.com> |
>>     www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner>
>>     HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>>     dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>>     <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/>
>>     Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>>     www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>>     <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com <http://www.paciellogroup.com> | 
> www.HTML5accessibility.com <http://www.HTML5accessibility.com> | 
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner>
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - 
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/>
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - 
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
Received on Thursday, 26 January 2012 14:11:47 UTC

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