Re: Obsolescence notices on old specifications, again

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the clarification.

I guess what Ian says and what he does are 2 different things, which is
true for all of us at one time or another.

So his oft stated stance about consensus based spec development , for
example [1]

"I have no intention of developing HTML5 based on *consensus*"

Is really just empty words.

>This is a fair concern. If you have specific concerns about your work
>being "undermined", I hope you are bringing your concerns to the Chairs,
>to Philippe, and to me.

I have brought specific concerns up in the past with the chairs and will
continue to do so. I will also refer them to you if I have concerns about
their resolution.


[1] http://markmail.org/message/foqvpokz7qyuivgd

with regards
Stevef


On 26 January 2012 14:11, Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org> wrote:

>  On 1/26/2012 5:12 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>
> hi Jeffe,
>
> Ian has stated in response [1]:
>
> "I follow it, like everyone else, exactly to the extent that I think it
> requires us to do the right thing for the Web. When the process requires
> us to do something bad for the Web, I ignore it."
>
> I say fair play to him and as long as any other participant in the process
> can opt out of the process whenever he/she thinks it's "bad for the Web,"
> and the W3C is OK with that, then we have a level playing field for all
> particpants.
>
>
> Noone has a free pass to opt out of the process.  As I said in [1], there
> have been exceptions where Ian has not followed the W3C process and we have
> successfully worked through disagreements.   Noone's choice to "opt out"
> are blithely ignored by the Chairs.
>
> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0031.html
>
>
>
> but his stament does appear to contradict your statement:
>
> "he agrees to follow the W3C Process"
>
>
> I don't interpret his statement in the same way you do.
>
> I understand your literal interpretation (since he is not following 100%
> of the rules all of the time it means he is not following the process).  As
> he says in his response to me [2], it is his view that sometimes he follows
> it more closely than W3C staff.  Since I believe that W3C staff follows the
> process (possibly with some mistakes), I conclude that Hixie believes he
> follows the process.  As he says in [2], he does not claim to.
> Nonetheless, he does.
>
> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html
>
>
>
> For people such as myself who have invested a lot of time and energy
> working within, what is at times a tortuous process, in effecting change to
> the HTML5 specification, for what I believe to be the 'right thing for the
> Web'. I don't want to see that work undermined and undone by someone who is
> in a powerful position, because he or she thinks they own rights on what is
> the 'right thing for the Web'.
>
>
> This is a fair concern.  If you have specific concerns about your work
> being "undermined", I hope you are bringing your concerns to the Chairs, to
> Philippe, and to me.
>
>
>
>
> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0032.html
>
>
> best regards
>
> Stevef
>
>  On 25 January 2012 23:58, Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org> wrote:
>
>>  On 1/25/2012 4:53 PM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>>
>> Hi Philippe,
>>
>>  Ian Hickson wrote: [1]
>>
>>  On Wed, 25 Jan 2012, Philippe Le Hegaret wrote:
>> >
>> > as a reminder, as editor of several documents for the Web Applications
>> > and HTML Working Group, you agreed to follow the W3C Process, as well as
>> > following the HTML Decision Policy of the HTML Working Group. If this is
>> > no longer the case, you should let the Chairs of those Groups aware of
>> > this,
>>
>> The chairs of both groups, as well as yourself, and Jeff, are fully aware
>> of this already.
>>
>>
>>  Let me say what I am fully aware of:
>>
>> 1. Ian has fundamental disagreements with the way that the W3C process
>> works.  He has been very clear about that.
>>
>> 2. Nonetheless, for situations that he is wearing his hat as Editor
>> within a W3C Working Group, he agrees to follow the W3C Process.  Part of
>> the reason is a mutual desire to have HTML work proceed both in W3C (under
>> its process) and WHATWG (under its process), and to keep HTML 5 as aligned
>> as possible with HTML LS.
>>
>> 3. There is already a consensus that some of the points that he has made
>> about standardization processes are good points - although not for the
>> goals of W3C Working Groups.  Many of these points have been adopted for
>> W3C Community Groups which has different objectives.
>>
>> 4. On the whole, the Chairs have reported to me that they are satisfied
>> that Ian has fulfilled the commitments (point 2 above) to follow the W3C
>> Process.  There have been exceptions which (to date) we have successfully
>> worked through.
>>
>> 5. Ian is so much "bought in" to W3C, that on one occasion where he
>> thought the Chairs had made a mistake, he actually escalated the Chairs'
>> decision to the W3C CEO.  (nb., after a brief discussion between the CEO,
>> Chairs, and Editor - all agreed that the Chairs and Editor would resolve
>> the issue and the CEO did not enter the HTML 5 Decision Process.)
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Ian Hickson
>>
>>
>>  So, a working group member who plays a pivotal role does not agree
>> to follow the W3C Process, as well as follow the HTML Decision Policy of
>> the HTML Working Group.
>>
>>
>>  Hence Ian has been following the W3C Process.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Why should any of us?
>>
>>  regards
>> Stevef
>>
>>
>>
>> On 25 January 2012 11:39, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Phillippe,
>>>
>>>
>>> Ian Hickson wrote [1]:
>>>
>>> "Nobody really follows the W3C process. Some claim to, others (such as
>>> myself) do not. Being on a W3C list certainly doesn't imply anything
>>> about
>>> one's actions with respect to the hallowed Process."
>>>
>>>
>>> I have acted under the assumption that  participation in working groups
>>> is dependent on my agreeing to, and attempting in good faith, to abide by
>>> W3C process, it appears that I and others have been mislead.
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012Jan/0025.html
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> with regards
>>>
>>> Steve Faulkner
>>> Technical Director - TPG
>>>
>>> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>>> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>>> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>>> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>>> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> with regards
>>
>> Steve Faulkner
>> Technical Director - TPG
>>
>> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
>> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html

Received on Thursday, 26 January 2012 15:55:14 UTC