W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-vocabs@w3.org > January 2014

Re: Am I right that WebPage lacks a generic property for linking to WebPageElement?

From: Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:46:43 -0800
Message-ID: <52DBF363.6030201@kcoyle.net>
To: public-vocabs@w3.org
Jarno - I think your example of a sidebar is analogous to the "article 
in a periodical". It is physically "part of" but has its own identity 
and semantics.

kc

On 1/19/14, 4:09 AM, Jarno van Driel wrote:
> Hi Niklas,
>
> All though I can image many cases where 'hasPart' could come in very
> handy indeed, when I read the description of 'hasPart' at [1]
> "Periodicals, Articles and Multi-volume Works" it says:
> hasPart (CreativeWork). A related CreativeWork that is included either
> logically or physically in this CreativeWork; for example, things in a
> collection, parts in a multi-part work, or articles in a periodical or
> publication issue.
>
> For me the problem lies with the word 'related'. Now sorry in advance if
> I'm being nitpicky here or misunderstand the description but I can also
> imagine/provide examples where a webpage element (like WPSideBar) can
> contain different webpage elements which don't share any relation
> besides the fact that they are part of the WPSideBar but are about
> completely different subjects.
>
> Take the sidebar of any given eCommerce site, which can contain many
> different blocks, about different subjects that only occupy the same
> screenspace but don't have a semantical relationship.
>
> Now I don't dare to state I know best, I just try to clarify the way it
> makes sense in my mind - which is subjective to say the least - and I
> agree with Martin that it would be great to know in which direction
> (conceptually) the sponsors of schema.org <http://schema.org/> think
> themselves.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Niklas Lindström <lindstream@gmail.com
> <mailto:lindstream@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Martin, all,
>
>     In the recent [1] "Periodicals, Articles and Multi-volume Works"
>     proposal [2] from the SchemaBibEx group, we've suggested a widening
>     of isPartOf, along with the addition of a hasPart property, to cover
>     general composition. (This is actually an inclusion of an earlier
>     proposal from us [3].)
>
>     Since the proposal is to use CreativeWork (of which both WebPage and
>     WebPageElement are subclasses) for both domain and range of these
>     properties, this case would be solved as well.
>
>     Cheers,
>     Niklas
>
>     [1]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2014Jan/0086.html
>     [2].
>     http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Periodicals,_Articles_and_Multi-volume_Works
>     [3]: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Collection
>
>
>
>     On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Martin Hepp
>     <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>     <mailto:martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>> wrote:
>
>         Hi Jarno,
>         Thanks for the swift reply. I also think mentions could be a
>         quick fix for that; maybe Dan can comment on whether this
>         direction is supported (conceptually) by the sponsors of
>         schema.org <http://schema.org>? Then, simply updating the
>         textual definition would do the trick.
>         Martin
>
>         On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Jarno van Driel wrote:
>
>          > So far I have been using http://schema.org/mentions to link
>         (secondary) webpageelements to a WebPage, while using
>         http://schema.org/text to enclose the primary content, and
>         personally I'm quite happy marking it up as such.
>          >
>          > I always figured that webpage elements like
>         WPHeader/WPSideBar/etc mirror their HTML equivalents like
>         <header>/<aside>/etc, which in their turn exist to markup
>         related/secondary content. For me the meaning of
>         http://schema.org/mentions reflects this perfectly while
>         http://schema.org/pageElement seems a bit too generic and could
>         lead to confusion weither it implies primary or secondary
>         webpage elements.
>          >
>          > Now I'm aware the description of http://schema.org/mentions
>         doesn't reflect this and on top of that there are no clear
>         examples on schema.org <http://schema.org> which show how to
>         properly use webpage elements but maybe adding some good
>         examples would be enough to clarify things. Adding a new
>         property for this seems a bit overkill IMHO.
>          >
>          >
>          > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Martin Hepp
>         <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>         <mailto:martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>> wrote:
>          > Dear all:
>          >
>          > As far as I understand,
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/WebPageElement
>          >
>          > would provide a nice way of exposing the meaning of, and
>         meta-data for, page elements, which could be used by search
>         engines e.g. for guessing the best contextual links (as opposed
>         to breadcrumbs, which imply some kind of hierarchy). In
>         particular, one could nicely use
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement
>          >
>          > to mark-up important links inside the page, which would often
>         make good contextual links.
>          >
>          > Unfortunately,
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/WebPage
>          >
>          > does not define a generic property for linking from the
>         WebPage to multiple
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/WebPageElement
>          >
>          > entities in the same page.
>          >
>          > Formally,
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/mentions
>          >
>          > would work, but I am unsure whether this is intended.
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/isPartOf
>          >
>          > would work from the perspective of the
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement,
>          >
>          > but could lead to circular processing of the data.
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/mainContentOfPage
>          >
>          > works only for the most important WegPageElement.
>          >
>          > I think the best solution would be to add a property
>          >
>          > http://schema.org/pageElement
>          >
>          > Indicates that the web page element is a relevant part of the
>         Web page (e.g. for linking from a web page to its site
>         navigation elements).
>          >
>          > What do others think? Did I miss anything?
>          >
>          > Martin
>          >
>          > --------------------------------------------------------
>          > martin hepp
>          > e-business & web science research group
>          > universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>          >
>          > e-mail: hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>         <mailto:hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>
>          > phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217 <tel:%2B49-%280%2989-6004-4217>
>          > fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620 <tel:%2B49-%280%2989-6004-4620>
>          > www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>          > http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>          > skype:   mfhepp
>          > twitter: mfhepp
>          >
>          > Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
>          > =================================================================
>          > * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>          >
>          >
>          >
>          >
>          >
>
>         --------------------------------------------------------
>         martin hepp
>         e-business & web science research group
>         universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>
>         e-mail: hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org <mailto:hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>
>         phone: +49-(0)89-6004-4217 <tel:%2B49-%280%2989-6004-4217>
>         fax: +49-(0)89-6004-4620 <tel:%2B49-%280%2989-6004-4620>
>         www: http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>         http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>         skype:   mfhepp
>         twitter: mfhepp
>
>         Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
>         =================================================================
>         * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Karen Coyle
kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet
Received on Sunday, 19 January 2014 15:47:10 UTC

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