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Re: Am I right that WebPage lacks a generic property for linking to WebPageElement?

From: Jarno van Driel <jarno@quantumspork.nl>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 13:09:47 +0100
Message-ID: <CAFQgrbbbre1tt-MhqunpEd0GaR9FmekNDQRWLurCF3tVuzP=4A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Niklas Lindström <lindstream@gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Hepp <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>, Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>, Public Vocabs <public-vocabs@w3.org>
Hi Niklas,

All though I can image many cases where 'hasPart' could come in very handy
indeed, when I read the description of 'hasPart' at [1] "Periodicals,
Articles and Multi-volume Works" it says:
hasPart (CreativeWork). A related CreativeWork that is included either
logically or physically in this CreativeWork; for example, things in a
collection, parts in a multi-part work, or articles in a periodical or
publication issue.

For me the problem lies with the word 'related'. Now sorry in advance if
I'm being nitpicky here or misunderstand the description but I can also
imagine/provide examples where a webpage element (like WPSideBar) can
contain different webpage elements which don't share any relation besides
the fact that they are part of the WPSideBar but are about completely
different subjects.

Take the sidebar of any given eCommerce site, which can contain many
different blocks, about different subjects that only occupy the same
screenspace but don't have a semantical relationship.

Now I don't dare to state I know best, I just try to clarify the way it
makes sense in my mind - which is subjective to say the least - and I agree
with Martin that it would be great to know in which direction (conceptually)
the sponsors of schema.org think themselves.




On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Niklas Lindström <lindstream@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Martin, all,
>
> In the recent [1] "Periodicals, Articles and Multi-volume Works" proposal
> [2] from the SchemaBibEx group, we've suggested a widening of isPartOf,
> along with the addition of a hasPart property, to cover general
> composition. (This is actually an inclusion of an earlier proposal from us
> [3].)
>
> Since the proposal is to use CreativeWork (of which both WebPage and
> WebPageElement are subclasses) for both domain and range of these
> properties, this case would be solved as well.
>
> Cheers,
> Niklas
>
> [1]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vocabs/2014Jan/0086.html
> [2].
> http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Periodicals,_Articles_and_Multi-volume_Works
> [3]: http://www.w3.org/community/schemabibex/wiki/Collection
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Martin Hepp <
> martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jarno,
>> Thanks for the swift reply. I also think mentions could be a quick fix
>> for that; maybe Dan can comment on whether this direction is supported
>> (conceptually) by the sponsors of schema.org? Then, simply updating the
>> textual definition would do the trick.
>> Martin
>>
>> On Jan 19, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Jarno van Driel wrote:
>>
>> > So far I have been using http://schema.org/mentions to link
>> (secondary) webpageelements to a WebPage, while using
>> http://schema.org/text to enclose the primary content, and personally
>> I'm quite happy marking it up as such.
>> >
>> > I always figured that webpage elements like WPHeader/WPSideBar/etc
>> mirror their HTML equivalents like <header>/<aside>/etc, which in their
>> turn exist to markup related/secondary content. For me the meaning of
>> http://schema.org/mentions reflects this perfectly while
>> http://schema.org/pageElement seems a bit too generic and could lead to
>> confusion weither it implies primary or secondary webpage elements.
>> >
>> > Now I'm aware the description of http://schema.org/mentions doesn't
>> reflect this and on top of that there are no clear examples on schema.orgwhich show how to properly use webpage elements but maybe adding some good
>> examples would be enough to clarify things. Adding a new property for this
>> seems a bit overkill IMHO.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Martin Hepp <
>> martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
>> > Dear all:
>> >
>> > As far as I understand,
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/WebPageElement
>> >
>> > would provide a nice way of exposing the meaning of, and meta-data for,
>> page elements, which could be used by search engines e.g. for guessing the
>> best contextual links (as opposed to breadcrumbs, which imply some kind of
>> hierarchy). In particular, one could nicely use
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement
>> >
>> > to mark-up important links inside the page, which would often make good
>> contextual links.
>> >
>> > Unfortunately,
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/WebPage
>> >
>> > does not define a generic property for linking from the WebPage to
>> multiple
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/WebPageElement
>> >
>> > entities in the same page.
>> >
>> > Formally,
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/mentions
>> >
>> > would work, but I am unsure whether this is intended.
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/isPartOf
>> >
>> > would work from the perspective of the
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/SiteNavigationElement,
>> >
>> > but could lead to circular processing of the data.
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/mainContentOfPage
>> >
>> > works only for the most important WegPageElement.
>> >
>> > I think the best solution would be to add a property
>> >
>> >     http://schema.org/pageElement
>> >
>> > Indicates that the web page element is a relevant part of the Web page
>> (e.g. for linking from a web page to its site navigation elements).
>> >
>> > What do others think? Did I miss anything?
>> >
>> > Martin
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------------------
>> > martin hepp
>> > e-business & web science research group
>> > universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>> >
>> > e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>> > phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>> > fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>> > www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>> >          http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>> > skype:   mfhepp
>> > twitter: mfhepp
>> >
>> > Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
>> > =================================================================
>> > * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> martin hepp
>> e-business & web science research group
>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>>
>> e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>> phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>> fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>> www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>>          http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>> skype:   mfhepp
>> twitter: mfhepp
>>
>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
>> =================================================================
>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Sunday, 19 January 2014 12:10:14 UTC

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