Re: Comics: Page counts, etc.

Karen,

That's very useful information !  Did not know that.

Could you please forward that paragraph to Schema.org mailing list, so that
we can get agreement and improve the definition on
http://schema.org/numberOfPages ?

Thanks !



On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Karen Coyle <kcoyle@kcoyle.net> wrote:

> Note also that the "page count" that publishers give to books is a
> physical count -- the actual number of sheets of paper x 2. The publisher
> knows this because he paid the printer for them. The page count that a
> library gives is the number on the highest numbered page (of each
> pagination type), which is what is visible and readily available (without
> having to sit and count the pages). Here are two "pages" statements for the
> same book:
>
> publisher: 208 pages
> library: xiv, 178 p. (which does not add up to 208 because blank pages
> aren't counted)
>
> So those are two other community practices that each is perfectly logical
> but will give different results. And note that it is probably the publisher
> number of pages that is currently in schema.org/Book.
>
> kc
>
>
> On 12/16/13, 8:01 AM, Wallis,Richard wrote:
>
>> Hi Henry,
>>
>> Great to have this interaction going between our groups.
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>>     I'm not sure how much any of this is a problem for the schema.  The
>>     main issue is that if you do not include the cover in the page
>>     count, it is possible for your "interior" pages to add up to more
>>     than the supposed total page count of the publication.
>>
>>
>> At the level of general vocabularies such as Schema we will be bridging
>> communities whose default habits may well be conflict at this level of
>> specificity.  I think it would be best left to the interpretation of the
>> individual [data] publisher.
>>
>> If you try to guide implementation in documentation it probably won’t
>> work, because for some it will go against their normal practice.
>>
>>
>> ~Richard
>>
>> On 15 Dec 2013, at 21:30, Henry Andrews <hha1@cornell.edu
>> <mailto:hha1@cornell.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>  [New thread title since this got specific]
>>>
>>> Thanks, Dan!  Clearly I still have a lot to learn about the various
>>> types and how they do and can interact.  Thank you for your patient
>>> explanations.  One definition of the "pagination" field seemed to
>>> include numberOfPages as a usage option, so I'm glad this is actually
>>> unambiguous- the four fields serve distinct use cases now.  (well,
>>> three- numberOfPages, pagination, and pageStart+pageEnd).
>>>
>>> Another page counting issue that doesn't tend to come up with books
>>> but may have come up with periodicals is how to treat the covers.  The
>>> GCD counts the covers as pages.  This particularly makes sense when
>>> there is no distinct cover to the comic, and when stories start on the
>>> inside of the front cover (Fox Feature Syndicate habitually did this
>>> in the late 1940s).
>>>
>>> For consistency, this is carried over into book format although it
>>> makes much less sense there.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how much any of this is a problem for the schema.  The
>>> main issue is that if you do not include the cover in the page count,
>>> it is possible for your "interior" pages to add up to more than the
>>> supposed total page count of the publication.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> -henry
>>>
>>>     ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ------------
>>>     *From:* Dan Scott <denials@gmail.com <mailto:denials@gmail.com>>
>>>     *To:* Henry Andrews <hha1@cornell.edu <mailto:hha1@cornell.edu>>
>>>     *Cc:* "public-schemabibex@w3.org
>>>     <mailto:public-schemabibex@w3.org>" <public-schemabibex@w3.org
>>>     <mailto:public-schemabibex@w3.org>>
>>>     *Sent:* Sunday, December 15, 2013 7:19 AM
>>>     *Subject:* Re: Comics and periodicals, call for feedback: round 2
>>>     (was Re: Comics and periodicals in schema.org <http://schema.org>)
>>>
>>>
>>>     Hi Henry:
>>>
>>>     On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 1:33 AM, Henry Andrews <hha1@cornell.edu
>>>     <mailto:hha1@cornell.edu>> wrote:
>>>     > Does this mean that there's no field in which one can simply
>>>     store the
>>>     > number of pages to an article/story?  In modern US comics, ads are
>>>     > interleaved with story pages and Marvel and DC in particular
>>>     have gone
>>>     > through phases of barely allowing more than two or three
>>>     consecutive pages
>>>     > without an ad being thrown in.  This is one reason why the GCD
>>>     tracks page
>>>     > count instead of specific page numbers (although the latter has
>>>     also been
>>>     > suggested).  GCD users are generally more interested in how long
>>>     the story
>>>     > is rather than how much it was chopped up by ads.
>>>
>>>     schema.org <http://schema.org> already offers the
>>>
>>>     http://schema.org/numberOfPages
>>>     <http://schema.org/numberOfPages>property
>>>     on the Book type, which is probably a better match for your purpose
>>>     than either the "pagination" or "pageStart" / "pageEnd" properties.
>>>
>>>     There are a few possible approaches for moving forward, that might
>>>     depend on the timing of when we bring the Comics proposal back to
>>>     public-vocabs for a decision:
>>>
>>>     a) If we move forward with the Bibo alignment work
>>>     (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schemabibex/
>>> 2013Dec/0076.html)
>>>     and introduce a "Document" class that would live between CreativeWork
>>>     and Article, then we could move "numberOfPages" from Book to
>>> Document,
>>>     and then all of the classes that inherit from Document would be able
>>>     to use it. That's likely also where "pagination", "pageStart",
>>>     "pageEnd", and a few other properties would ultimately live, as Book,
>>>     PublicationIssue, PublicationVolume, Article, and other Document
>>>     classes would be able to benefit from those properties and we would
>>> be
>>>     able to simplify the RDFS.
>>>
>>>     b) If we move forward with the Bibo alignment work but decide not to
>>>     introduce a "Document" class, then we could move the document-centric
>>>     properties directly to CreativeWork. Our classes of interest would
>>>     still get access to those properties; the drawback is that sculptures
>>>     and movies would get those properties too (although, hey, who is to
>>>     say that a sculpture made from random pages of books and journals
>>>     wouldn't be interested in a numberOfPages property - heh!)
>>>
>>>     c) If the Bibo work is delayed and Comics moves forward, then we
>>> could
>>>     simply assert via a domainIncludes directive that ComicStory should
>>>     have access to the numberOfPages property as well.
>>>
>>>     In any case, we should be able to make this work :)
>>>
>>>
>>>     Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> Karen Coyle
> kcoyle@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
> m: 1-510-435-8234
> skype: kcoylenet
>
>


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