Minutes of RDF DAWG telecon 2004-10-05

Minutes of RDF DAWG teleconference 2004-10-05T14:30Z for review

Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0039.html

IRC log:
http://www.w3.org/2004/10/05-dawg-irc
(link doesn't work for me, I attach my raw IRC log)

1. Convene, take roll, review record

Scribe: JanneS

Present:
    Tom Adams
    Dave Beckett
    Kendall Clark
    Steve Harris
    Pat Hayes
    Howard Katz
    Farrukh Najmi
    Eric Prud'hommeaux
    Simon Raboczi
    Alberto Reggiori
    Janne Saarela
    Andy Seaborne

Regrets:
    Dan Connolly
    Jos De Roo

RESOLVED: to accept minutes of the 28-Sep-2004 teleconference
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0573.html
with amendments from Alberto in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0576.html
and with amendments from DanC in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0591.html

Next meeting 2004-10-12 14:30 UTC


2. Publication of SPARQL

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/

ACTION Dirk: provide details about DB interfaces, re '?' and '$'
CONTINUED

SteveH, DaveB and HowardK actions all done

WG voted in favor of publishing the document once DaveB,
HowardK, and SteveH have discussed their comments with the editors.

ACTION: DaveB, HowarkD, SteveH work with editors and decide whether to 
publish

ACTION: KendallC to spell check/grammar check document


3. Publish UC&R

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases

ACTION KendallC: add DI use case.
DONE in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases#u2.16

ACTION PatH: Review UC&R draft appearing around Oct1, for Oct5 telcon
DONE in 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0033.html

WG voted in favor of publishing the document subject to Kendall's
fine-tuning changes

ACTION KendallC: fine-tune UC&R and then publish


4. SPARQL Protocol

ACTION KendallC: expose our walking tour data to SPARQL querying clients
ETA before F2F4
CONTINUED

ACTION KendallC: talk to creative commons people
about an RDF query interface to their search service.
ETA 1-2 weeks
CONTINUED

ACTION KendallC: write a protocol document draft (est delivery in 1
month).
CONTINUED


5. Misc

ACTION EricP: draft UC on overlap between RDF query and web service
constraints with respect to WS-Policy
CONTINUED

ACTION SteveH: send mail about the signage project
DROPPED due to SteveH's evaluation it would not be relevant for WG work

ACTION EricP: find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March
28 Feb - 4 Mar (2 days).  Some WG preference to Mon/Tue of that week.
CONTINUED

ACTION DanC: talk with Kendall about issues list maintenance
CONTINUED

ACTION SteveH: owns issue 'nested optionals'
CONTINUED

ACTION AlbertoR: owns issue 'DESCRIBE'
CONTINUED

ACTION DanC: owner of issue 'yes or no questions'
CONTINUED

ACTION SteveH: own (i.e. propose resolution to) disjunction issue
CONTINUED


6. SOURCE

DaveB briefed that the WG has not yet reached consensus on the SOURCE 
issue he owns.

ACTION SteveH: test cases (10 or so) re: current SOURCE design.
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0549.html
CONTINUED

ACTION AlbertoR: real test cases re: current SOURCE design.
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0551.html
CONTINUED

ACTION AlbertoR: (with SteveH) edit the examples into test cases
(either positive or negative tests)
see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0327.html
CONTINUED

ACTION DaveB: Update the source section 9, add
more formal links, update the examples, try to think about extra
constraints as EricP proposed (SOURCE ?s and ?s only in in
SELECT). Look at various people's source test cases.
note: current spec has source for interrogation and constraint.
note:
CONTINUED

ACTION: Tom to send sample iTQL queries and result formats for 
subqueries vs. disjunction


7. XML query results formats

This agenda item wasn't discussed during the meeting.

ADJOURNED 15:35Z, Next meeting 2004-10-12 14:30 UTC

-- 
Janne Saarela <janne.saarela at profium.com>
Profium, Lars Sonckin kaari 12, 02600 Espoo, Finland
Internet: http://www.profium.com

**** Logging Started : Tue Oct 05 17:27:41 EEST 2004
<Zakim> +NickG
<SteveH> Zakim, NickG is SteveH
<Zakim> +SteveH; got it
<Zakim> +Kendall_Clark
<Zakim> +??P29
<Zakim> +??P31
> Zakim, +??29 is JanneS
<Zakim> sorry, JanneS, I do not recognize a party named '+??29'
<ericP> zakim, P29 is JanneS
<Zakim> sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named 'P29'
<Zakim> +??P32
> Zakim, +??P29 is JanneS
<Zakim> sorry, JanneS, I do not recognize a party named '+??P29'
<AndyS> zakim, ??P32 is AndyS
<Zakim> +AndyS; got it
<ericP> zakim, P29 is ??JanneS
<Zakim> sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named 'P29'
<ericP> zakim, ??P31 is SimonR
<Zakim> +SimonR; got it
<ericP> zakim, who is here?
<Zakim> On the phone I see HowardK, EricP, SteveH, Kendall_Clark, ??P29, SimonR, AndyS
> zakim, ??P29 is JanneS
<Zakim> +JanneS; got it
* SteveH is geting a lot of noise
* kendall too
<kendall> zakim, mute me
<Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
*** TomAdams (tom@65.207.109.27) has joined channel #dawg
<AndyS> "scribe: ?VOLUNTEER" is VOLUNTEER is a query variable?!!!
*** AlbertoR (AlbertoR@81.74.1.226) has joined channel #dawg
<Zakim> +Farrukh
<ericP> zakim, who is here?
<Zakim> On the phone I see HowardK, EricP, SteveH, Kendall_Clark (muted), JanneS, SimonR, AndyS, Farrukh
<Zakim> +[Tucana]
<Zakim> +Tom_Adams (was [Tucana])
<Zakim> +[ASemantics]
<ericP> zakim, [ASemantics] is AlbertoR
<Zakim> +AlbertoR; got it
<Zakim> +??P37
<DaveB> Zakim, ??P37 is DaveB
<Zakim> +DaveB; got it
> about to accept minutes from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0573.html
*** patH (phayes@65.212.118.4) has joined channel #dawg
<kendall> damn, the list archive seems down
<AlbertoR> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0576.html just pointed out I did some work on SOURCE tests
<ericP> accept http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/thread.html#573 +Alberto's most recent ammendment?
<kendall> zakim, unmute me
<Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
<Zakim> +PatH
<DaveB> albertos http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0576.html
> approved minutes with amendments
<ericP> acccepted
> 2. Publication of SPARQL
> AndyS: thanks for all reviewers, some definitions still to be added
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/
<ericP> ACTION Dirk: provide details about DB interfaces, re '?' and '$'
<AndyS> s/added/fixed/
<ericP> CONTINUED
<AndyS> :-(
* AlbertoR AndyS: already pinged DW two times - he will try to reply in next days he said (again)
<ericP> ACTION SteveH: review updated spec and advise WG on whether to publish as 1st WD
* AndyS -> Alberto : not critical path as yet
* AlbertoR good - txs
<ericP> done
<ericP> ACTION DaveB...
<ericP> done
<ericP> ACTION HowardK...
<ericP> done
> SteveH, DaveB and HowardK actions all done
> SteveH still had some clarifications in minds but they've been addressed already
> DaveB's comments relate to the definitions AndyS is going to work with
> EricP: two options: 1. have another round with the editors or 2. delay the publication by one week
> DaveB: needs comments on his comments
<DaveB> this will have to be a formal WG vote...
> EricP: are WG members willing to give proxy to Simon, Howard and Dave in order to signal publication?
* AlbertoR zakim, who is on the phone?
* Zakim sees on the phone: HowardK, EricP, SteveH, Kendall_Clark, JanneS, SimonR, AndyS, Farrukh, Tom_Adams, AlbertoR, DaveB, PatH
> DaveB: proposal to publish once DaveB, SimonR and HowardK approve the doc
> + ASemantics
* Zakim wonders where ASemantics is
> + Univ. of bristol
> + HP
* Zakim wonders where HP is
<ericP> HP abstains
> + Univ. of Maryland
> (missed that, thx)
> + Profium
* Zakim wonders where Profium is
> + Univ. of Southampton
> + Sun Microsystems
> + Tucana
* Zakim wonders where Tucana is
> Pat abtains
* AndyS with 3 reviewers might as well go for next week - makes little practical difference
> + HowardK
* Zakim saw HowardK arrive 24 minutes ago
> + W3C/Eric
* Zakim wonders where W3C/Eric is
<ericP> action DaveB work with editors and decide wheterh to publish
<ericP> ACTION DaveB work with editors and decide wheterh to publish
<ericP> ACTION DaveB: work with editors and decide wheterh to publish
<ericP> ACTION DaveB: to work with editors and decide wheterh to publish
<ericP> arg!
<DaveB> wg decided to publish
> KendallC: would like to see spell-check and English check take place before publishing in order to guarantee good quality doc
* DaveB won't you KendallC be busy pubbing uC&R ?
<TomAdams> kendall, Do you need a hand with that? Willing to do so if need be.
> KendallC volunteering to assist editor if such help needed
<ericP> ACTION: KendallC to spell check/grammar check document
<DaveB> Action DaveB, HowarkD, SteveH: work with editors and decide whether to publish
*** RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30) has joined channel #dawg
* RRSAgent is logging to http://www.w3.org/2004/10/05-dawg-irc
<ericP> Action DaveB, HowarkD, SteveH: work with editors and decide whether to publish
<ericP> ACTION: DaveB, HowarkD, SteveH: work with editors and decide whether to publish
* RRSAgent records action 1
<ericP> yes!!!
<DaveB> -1 to another vote
> EricP: wishes to expedite the process by hanging on this irc channel once we adjourn (among editors and the bunch of 3)
<ericP> agenda + Publish UC&R
* Zakim notes agendum 1 added
> 3. Publish UC&R
<kendall> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases
<kendall> Live Draft (  $Revision: 1.139 $ of $Date: 2004/10/05 14:42:05 $)
<ericP> zakim, take up next agendum
<Zakim> agendum 1. "Publish UC&R" taken up [from ericP]
<ericP> ACTION KendallC: add DI use case.
* RRSAgent records action 2
<ericP> DONE
<TomAdams> q+
* Zakim sees TomAdams on the speaker queue
> KendallC's action addressed in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases#u2.16
> KendallC has taken into account the Pat's comments in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0033.html
> KendallC hopes to give a final tour-de-UC&R before giving thumbs up
<ericP> ack TomAdams
* Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
<ericP> ACTION KendallC: provided updated UC&R as candidate for publication. [due in the next 2 to 3 weeks, in time to get the WG to decide on 5 Oct]
* RRSAgent records action 3
<ericP> done
<ericP> DOEN
<ericP> DONE
<ericP> ACTION PatH: Review UC&R draft appearing around Oct1, for Oct5 telcon
* RRSAgent records action 4
<ericP> DONE
> EricP: proposal to a) approve as such or b) approve subject to KendallC's editorial final touch
<ericP> PROPOSAL: publish UC&R subject to Kendall's changes
> going to vote on this proposal
<TomAdams> kendall, Thanks, read the UC and it looks OK.
> nobody against publishing
> KendallC abstaining
<ericP> PROPOSAL CARRIES
> rest of the participants ok to publish UC&R subject to Kendall's changes
<kendall> Tom: coolio
<ericP> agenda + SPARQL Protocol
* Zakim notes agendum 2 added
<ericP> zakim, take up next agendum
<Zakim> agendum 2. "SPARQL Protocol" taken up [from ericP]
> 4. SPARQL Protocol
<ericP> ACTION KendallC: expose our walking tour data to SPARQL querying clients
* RRSAgent records action 5
<ericP> CONTINUED
<ericP> ACTION KendallC: talk to creative commons people about an RDF query interface to their search service.
* RRSAgent records action 6
<ericP> CONTINUED
<ericP> ACTION KendallC: write a protocol document draft
* RRSAgent records action 7
<ericP> CONTINUED
<ericP> (actively)
<TomAdams> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Oct/0006.html
<TomAdams> Will also post to list
<ericP> agenda + Misc Action Items
* Zakim notes agendum 3 added
<ericP> zakim, take up next agendum
<Zakim> agendum 3. "Misc Action Items" taken up [from ericP]
> 5. Misc
<ericP> agenda + SOURCE discussion
* Zakim notes agendum 4 added
<TomAdams> Two things are mentioned early. 1) A query language 2) a data access protocol. The DAP seems to be necessary for clients to talk to servers. Generally, I would keep the two unbound so that they can change independently as needed. There is not much discussion of the DAP, specifically whether it is a transport/wire protocol (like HTTP, IIOP, etc.) or some higher level protocol. This distinction is key. I would strongly recommened not to create a new wire-protocol l
<ericP> ACTION EricP: draft UC on overlap between RDF query and web service constraints with respect to WS-Policy
* RRSAgent records action 8
<ericP> CONTINUE
<ericP> ACTION SteveH: send mail about the signage project
* RRSAgent records action 9
> SteveH: not sure if relevant
<ericP> DROPPED
<ericP> ACTION EricP: find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March 28 Feb - 4 Mar (2 days).  Some WG preference to Mon/Tue of that week.
* RRSAgent records action 10
<ericP> CONTINUED
> Zakim, mute JanneS
<Zakim> JanneS should now be muted
> was that me?
<ericP> ACTION DanC: talk with Kendall about issues list maintenance
* RRSAgent records action 11
> (bluetooth technology is so very wonderful - noise production if nothing else)
<ericP> CONTINUED
<ericP> ACTION SteveH: owns issue 'nested optionals'
* RRSAgent records action 12
<ericP> ACTION AlbertoR: owns issue 'DESCRIBE'
* RRSAgent records action 13
<AlbertoR> CONTINUED
<ericP> CONTINUED
<ericP> ACTION DanC: owner of issue 'yes or no questions'
* RRSAgent records action 14
<ericP> CONTINUED
<ericP> ACTION SteveH: own (i.e. propose resolution to) disjunction issue
* RRSAgent records action 15
> SteveH's resolution (proposal to drop) in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0604.html
<kendall> SteveH: fwiw, i don't want to claim that it isn't hard to specify. :>
<DaveB> does kowari have any of netsted optionals, desribe, yes or no or disjuntion?
<kendall> i spent lunch yesterday thinking about interaction of OR and UNSAID...
* AlbertoR wonders if nesting {} vs. () is only an issue about whether or not we support disjunction - or we need nesting also for other things (vs. repeating keywords e.g. OPTIONAL)
* AndyS => SOURCE blocks
* AlbertoR AndyS: but we could repeat SOURCE keywords - right? ugly...I agree... ;)
<ericP> CONTINUED (SteveH)
* AndyS Its ugly esp as the length of query grows.  As you can flatten, I see no reason not to have the syntax to make clear if app writer wants
<DaveB> I found SimonR's http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0024.html
> SimonR can provide a link to relevant discussion on nested optionals
<ericP> zakim, take up next agendum
<Zakim> agendum 4. "SOURCE discussion" taken up [from ericP]
<TomAdams> Kowari has nested optionals (I think), as our subqueries.
* AlbertoR AndyS: or use the next keyword to close the "scope" or the previous
> 6. SOURCE
> DaveB: no consensus yet
<TomAdams> Action: Tom to send sample iTQL queries and result formats for subqueries vs. disjunction
<ericP> ACTION SteveH: test cases (10 or so) re: current SOURCE design.
* RRSAgent records action 16
> DaveB: actions still pending on producing test cases that should help reach consensus
<TomAdams> ACTION Tom to send sample iTQL queries and result formats for subqueries vs. disjunction
<AlbertoR> some SOURCE cases http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~swh/source-tests/
<ericP> CONTINUED (some done, waiting further discussion before adding more)
<ericP> ACTION AlbertoR: real test cases re: current SOURCE design.
* RRSAgent records action 17
<ericP> CONTINUE
<ericP> CONTINUED
<TomAdams> Eric, can you please add my action, I cannot seem to.
<ericP> ACTION AlbertoR: (with SteveH) edit the examples into test cases
* RRSAgent records action 18
<ericP> (either positive or negative tests)
<ericP> ACTION: Tom to send sample iTQL queries and result formats for subqueries vs. disjunction
* RRSAgent records action 19
<ericP> CONTINUED (AlbertoR)
<ericP> ACTION DaveB: Update the source section 9, add more formal links, update the examples, try to think about extra constraints as EricP proposed (SOURCE ?s and ?s only in in SELECT). Look at various people's source test cases.
* RRSAgent records action 20
<ericP> CONTINUED
<ericP> agenda + XML query results formats
* Zakim notes agendum 5 added
> meeting adjourned
<ericP> ADJOURNED
<Zakim> -PatH
> editors and reviewers to continue informally
<Zakim> -Farrukh
*** FarrukhNa has left channel #dawg