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Draft minutes: 28 January 2014 call

From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:19:03 -0500
Message-ID: <52E7E687.10709@nokia.com>
To: "public-pointer-events@w3.org" <public-pointer-events@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the January 28 voice conference are available at 
the following and copied below:

<http://www.w3.org/2014/01/29-pointerevents-minutes.html>

WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send 
them to the public-pointer-events mail list before February 4. In the 
absence of any changes, these minutes will be considered approved.

-Thanks, ArtB

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

              Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference

28 Jan 2014

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Jacob_Rossi, Patrick_Lauke,
           Rick_Byers, Scott_Gonzαlez, Sangwhan_Moon

    Regrets
           Doug_Schepers, Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan

    Chair
           Art

    Scribe
           ArtB

Contents

      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Tweak agenda
          2. [5]Pointer Events types and keyboard/keyboard-like
             interfaces?
          3. [6]Touch-action to SVG elements
          4. [7]Bug 24346; Clarifications on Pointer Events Types
             section;
          5. [8]Bug 24348; pointerdown/pointerup/pointercancel on
             non-hover devices;
          6. [9]Clarification on "cancelling" pointerdown
          7. [10]initial thoughts: pointerup and
             "click"/"contextmenu";
          8. [11]Impact of pointer capture on hit testing
             requirements / performance
          9. [12]Should Rick's touch-action tests for blink be
             ported/included to PE test suite?
         10. [13]Testing status
         11. [14]CR implementation updates
         12. [15]AoB
      * [16]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

Tweak agenda

    AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0057.html. Any change requests?
    ... Patrick, welcome to the group and thanks for your
    introduction
    ([18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/
    2014JanMar/0034.html). FYI, I generally am the scribe of these
    calls and we expect participants to "embellish and correct" the
    minutes directly in IRC.

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0057.html.
      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0034.html).

    <patrick_h_lauke> Zaki, +44.797.663.aaaa is me

    <patrick_h_lauke> oops

Pointer Events types and keyboard/keyboard-like interfaces?

    AB: Patrick started this thread on January 4
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0002.html.
    ... there was some discussion by Rick, Patrick and Bruce but I
    don't think there was a resolution or consensus position per se
    but I could have missed it.

      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0002.html.

    PL: need to do some testing with polyfills before making a
    decsion

    … my bg is with WAI

    … Opera has done some related work

    … Discussion ended with we should polyfill and do some testing

    RB: Jacob and I are both conerned about adding too much to the
    low level primitives

    … having said that, if we can show there is a good need we can
    discuss this again

    SM: with spatial nav, some elements like href have different
    behaviour

    … e.g. for mouse click

    … testing is all against mouse handling

    … spatial navigation generates fake mouse events

    … I'm investigating doing same thing for pointerevents

    … but we need to learn more

    … not sure if we need to do something in the spec yet or not

    SG: when it does fail, what events were devs listening to?

    SM: mousedown and mouseup

    … which is normal behaviour for browser

    SG: not sure want to contort spec if people are doing wrong
    thing

    JR: we have done some similar investigation

    … our primary goal is mouse compat

    <sangwhan>
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013OctDec/0018.html

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0018.html

    SG: if have a cursor, want pointer events

    … thus new devices can use PEs and just work

    … fine to have a controller that can point and type and to have
    different events

    PL: what about sequential tabbing thru pages

    … don't want devs to have to lie about their input devices

    [ Scott discusses tool tip scenario … ]

    RB: can understand an api that is agnostic for keyboard, tab,
    mouse, touch, etc.

    <patrick_h_lauke> fundamental (historic) difference between
    "focus" and "hover" - if i click with a mouse on a focusable
    element, i shift focus to it as well, and focus remains there
    even when "hover" isn't happening anymore

    <patrick_h_lauke> maybe not the right place to fix THIS
    scenario here (but we've bumped against that in other
    accessibility discussions already)

    RB: don't want to have to "lie" to get compat

    … if a huge set of sites are broken, then lies can be justfied

    <patrick_h_lauke> RB: making up screen coordinates (as
    suggested by PL "take center point of focused element) is a
    "lie"

    … think we need to know which higher level APIs are missing

    SG: hover and focus are different things

    <patrick_h_lauke> SG: developers should be using focus, blur,
    click which is agnostic

    <patrick_h_lauke> that was matt methinks

    MB: the implementation of hover creates a problem

    … we have a section about mouse events

    … can we do backwards compat in a predictable way

    … without creating other issues

    SG: but some sites are already broken with keyboards

    JR: keyboard interaction model is a lot different than the new
    devices

    <patrick_h_lauke> question for/from me is: with pointer events
    we have a clean slate, but will developers fall back to the
    same (wrong) practices and ignore keyboard

    JR: keyboards don't hover, not pixel based

    … when I look at what people are building with PE, not clear
    how keyboard would fit in

    … don't think we should add anything to the spec until we have
    more data

    RB: yes, agree; need more experience

    AB: seems like we don't quite have enough experience and data
    to agree to a change to the spec

    SM: if we don't generate any compat events, think we are going
    to have problem

    <scribe> ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard
    compat issue [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Make a proposal re the keyboard
    compat issue [on Sangwhan Moon - due 2014-02-04].

    PL: don't want devs to fall back on old practices

    … perhaps an advisory note

    … should be added to the spec

    RB: I like that idea

    … non-normative note makes sense

    <jrossi>
    [22]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEv
    ents.html#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events

      [22] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events

    <scribe> ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the
    keyboard compat issue [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Propose a non-normative note re
    the keyboard compat issue [on Patrick Lauke - due 2014-02-04].

    JR: we already have something like that and we can add some
    more text

    <patrick_h_lauke> JR: add to the note importance about a11y

    <patrick_h_lauke> RB: also add focus/blur advice

Touch-action to SVG elements

    AB: this thread was started by Gnanasekar S, January 13
    [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/att-0016/00-part.
    ... Rick sent two replies: first
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0018.html and second is
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0024.html.

      [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/att-0016/00-part.
      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0018.html
      [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0024.html.

    RB: he works for Samsung in India

    … he has been landing some patches in Blink

    … I encouraged him to send this message

    AB: What's the group's position on this? Do we do nothing, is a
    minor clarification/tweak to the PE spec needed, or something
    else?

    RB: my reading of the spec is that touch-action doesn't apply
    to SVG elements

    JR: perhaps the problem is the text wasn't meant to be plural

    RB: perhaps we just need a clarification then

    JR: use "The" SVG element
    ... would be good if Doug were here

    AB: good point

    <scribe> ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG
    element issue [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Create a proposal to address the
    svg element issue [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04].

    <patrick_h_lauke> sorry folks, have to shoot off

    RB: also need to make sure the use of "block" is correct

    <patrick_h_lauke> feel free to assign anything more to me later
    from "my" topics

    JR: we can certainly reach out to the SVG WG

    RB: yeah, good idea

    … let's make sure we get them to help us get the text correct

Bug 24346; Clarifications on Pointer Events Types section;

    AB: this bug was filed by Patrick on January 21.
    [28]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346 as a
    followup to the "`List of Pointer Events` table default
    actions" thread between Patrick and Rick on January 17
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0025.html
    ... do we want to discuss this now?

      [28] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346
      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0025.html

    RB: I think Jacob replied

    JR: I think Patrick proposed text but I have made the change

    RB: I made some minor tweaks too

    <scribe> ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement
    during the 28-Jan-2014 call [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Address bug 24346 per the
    agreement during the 28-jan-2014 call [on Jacob Rossi - due
    2014-02-04].

Bug 24348; pointerdown/pointerup/pointercancel on non-hover devices;

    AB: Patrick filed this bug on 21-Jan-2014
    [31]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24348.
    ... Jacob fixed the bug in in latest ED
    [32]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/default/point
    erEvents.html via two changsets (URLs are in the bug).
    ... is there anything we need to discuss or is the latest ED
    with Jacob's two changes OK?

      [31] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24348.
      [32] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/default/pointerEvents.html

    RB: I agree Jacob's patches are good

    AB: any objections?

    [ None ]

    RESOLUTION: Jacob's patches for bug 24348 are OK

Clarification on "cancelling" pointerdown

    AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22
    [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0041.html. Matt replied
    [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0048.html.
    ... do we need a minor clarification or is there something
    more?

      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0041.html.
      [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0048.html.

    RB: I agree with Matt's comment

    JR: yes, need a DOM4 reference

    <scribe> ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on
    'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the
    discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Create a bug for the
    "clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address
    it per the discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Jacob Rossi - due
    2014-02-04].

initial thoughts: pointerup and "click"/"contextmenu";

    AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22
    [36]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0042.html. Jacob replied on January 24
    [37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0055.html.

      [36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0042.html.
      [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0055.html.

    SM: I'm looking at bug on Opera mobile with touch events

    … there is a scenario where touch cancel causes some compat
    issues

    … think we are going to have the same problem with
    pointerevents

    JR: re ordering, I replied to Patrick with my thoughts

    … different solutions have been implememted

    SM: context menu can obstruct the pointer

    … and in that case, it should be canceled

    JR: if press and hold on Safari, menu appears below finger

    … can expect cancel happening

    … in IE we do things differently

    … get up first and then context menu

    JR: does IE supress context menu if a move is in place
    ... the event should always fire

    RB: I agree with Jacob that this is outside the scope of this
    group

    … not clear that all browsers would want to agree on a behavior

    SM: that's fine

    RB: it wouldn't hurt to add a non-normative note about this

    … and mention UAs will vary here

    AB: would that be ok Jacob?

    JR: yes, that would be fine

    RB: I can propose a sentence

    SM: think we can add a note in the compat section

    … just need a sentence

    <scribe> ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context
    menu issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion06]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Make a proposal to address the
    context menu issue per discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Rick Byers
    - due 2014-02-04].

Impact of pointer capture on hit testing requirements / performance

    AB: Rick started this thread on January 24
    [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0056.html and Jacob replied
    [40]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0058.html.
    ... it appears an informative note we agreed to add last
    November
    ([41]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/3c9741587490) is
    causing a performance issue, at least for Polymer
    implementation of PE.

      [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0056.html
      [40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0058.html.
      [41] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/3c9741587490)

    RB: the recent text re events when crossing element boundaries,
    we get a performance hit

    … the action is for me to do more experments

    … and gather some specific data

    … think it will boil down to a UA implementation issue that
    doesn't need to be addressed in the spec

    JR: I would be interested in seeing some data

    … want to know what the content does in these scenarios

    RB: it could be a prob with our hit testig

    AB: do you want an action Rick?

    RB: I think we should close this for now and if/when I have an
    issue I'll raise it again

    AB: works for me

Should Rick's touch-action tests for blink be ported/included to PE
test suite?

    AB: earlier this month Rick started this thread
    [42]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    014JanMar/0014.html and no one replied.

      [42] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0014.html

    RB: I think we already discussed this

    … I can add them

    … think we still haven't landed the PR from Microsoft and get
    Scott's work done

    … after those actions are done, and they are higher priority,
    then we can come back to this

    AB: sounds very reasonable

Testing status

    AB: can anyone provide a short status on testing? The minutes
    from our last discussion are
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
    m07. My recollection is Jacob and Scott have some open actions.
    ... open actions are
    [44]https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/open.

      [43] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item07.
      [44] https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/open.

    JR: someone else (not me) is writing our PE tests

    … I need to get an update from them

    … I'll check on the status

    AB: ok, thanks

CR implementation updates

    AB: any new news re implementations?

    MB: Gecko impl is moving quickly

    <scott_gonzalez> I have to join another call in a minute.

    … touch-action can be enabled (not on by default)

    … some parts of the impl are awaiting review

    AB: that's great; thank you

    <mbrubeck_> (Thanks again to MS Open Tech)

AoB

    AB: anything else for today?

    RB: Edge Conference in London

    … I'll be on a panel with Patrick

    … audience is experienced developers

    … lots of good service providers

    … sponsored by Microsoft

    … Hope to get more panelists

    <smaug> hrm

    AB: are you going Jacob or someone from Microsoft?

    <smaug> sorry

    <smaug> I'm in SF

    JR: I won't be able to attend

    … but we may get someone

    … the discussion last year was great

    AB: will be live streamed or recorded?

    JR: yes, at least one of those

    AB: Matt, how about Mozilla?

    MB: I can look into it

    RB: that would be good; we need to know who is supporting PE

    … the more representation from browser vendors the better

    AB: agree
    ... meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement during
    the 28-Jan-2014 call [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on
    'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the
    discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion05]
    [NEW] ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG
    element issue [recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion03]
    [NEW] ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the
    keyboard compat issue [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion02]
    [NEW] ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context menu
    issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in
    [49]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion06]
    [NEW] ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard compat
    issue [recorded in
    [50]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion01]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 28 January 2014 17:19:31 UTC

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