- From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 12:19:03 -0500
- To: "public-pointer-events@w3.org" <public-pointer-events@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the January 28 voice conference are available at
the following and copied below:
<http://www.w3.org/2014/01/29-pointerevents-minutes.html>
WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send
them to the public-pointer-events mail list before February 4. In the
absence of any changes, these minutes will be considered approved.
-Thanks, ArtB
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference
28 Jan 2014
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-irc
Attendees
Present
Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Jacob_Rossi, Patrick_Lauke,
Rick_Byers, Scott_Gonzαlez, Sangwhan_Moon
Regrets
Doug_Schepers, Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan
Chair
Art
Scribe
ArtB
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Tweak agenda
2. [5]Pointer Events types and keyboard/keyboard-like
interfaces?
3. [6]Touch-action to SVG elements
4. [7]Bug 24346; Clarifications on Pointer Events Types
section;
5. [8]Bug 24348; pointerdown/pointerup/pointercancel on
non-hover devices;
6. [9]Clarification on "cancelling" pointerdown
7. [10]initial thoughts: pointerup and
"click"/"contextmenu";
8. [11]Impact of pointer capture on hit testing
requirements / performance
9. [12]Should Rick's touch-action tests for blink be
ported/included to PE test suite?
10. [13]Testing status
11. [14]CR implementation updates
12. [15]AoB
* [16]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
Tweak agenda
AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday
[17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0057.html. Any change requests?
... Patrick, welcome to the group and thanks for your
introduction
([18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/
2014JanMar/0034.html). FYI, I generally am the scribe of these
calls and we expect participants to "embellish and correct" the
minutes directly in IRC.
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0057.html.
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0034.html).
<patrick_h_lauke> Zaki, +44.797.663.aaaa is me
<patrick_h_lauke> oops
Pointer Events types and keyboard/keyboard-like interfaces?
AB: Patrick started this thread on January 4
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0002.html.
... there was some discussion by Rick, Patrick and Bruce but I
don't think there was a resolution or consensus position per se
but I could have missed it.
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0002.html.
PL: need to do some testing with polyfills before making a
decsion
my bg is with WAI
Opera has done some related work
Discussion ended with we should polyfill and do some testing
RB: Jacob and I are both conerned about adding too much to the
low level primitives
having said that, if we can show there is a good need we can
discuss this again
SM: with spatial nav, some elements like href have different
behaviour
e.g. for mouse click
testing is all against mouse handling
spatial navigation generates fake mouse events
I'm investigating doing same thing for pointerevents
but we need to learn more
not sure if we need to do something in the spec yet or not
SG: when it does fail, what events were devs listening to?
SM: mousedown and mouseup
which is normal behaviour for browser
SG: not sure want to contort spec if people are doing wrong
thing
JR: we have done some similar investigation
our primary goal is mouse compat
<sangwhan>
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
013OctDec/0018.html
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013OctDec/0018.html
SG: if have a cursor, want pointer events
thus new devices can use PEs and just work
fine to have a controller that can point and type and to have
different events
PL: what about sequential tabbing thru pages
don't want devs to have to lie about their input devices
[ Scott discusses tool tip scenario
]
RB: can understand an api that is agnostic for keyboard, tab,
mouse, touch, etc.
<patrick_h_lauke> fundamental (historic) difference between
"focus" and "hover" - if i click with a mouse on a focusable
element, i shift focus to it as well, and focus remains there
even when "hover" isn't happening anymore
<patrick_h_lauke> maybe not the right place to fix THIS
scenario here (but we've bumped against that in other
accessibility discussions already)
RB: don't want to have to "lie" to get compat
if a huge set of sites are broken, then lies can be justfied
<patrick_h_lauke> RB: making up screen coordinates (as
suggested by PL "take center point of focused element) is a
"lie"
think we need to know which higher level APIs are missing
SG: hover and focus are different things
<patrick_h_lauke> SG: developers should be using focus, blur,
click which is agnostic
<patrick_h_lauke> that was matt methinks
MB: the implementation of hover creates a problem
we have a section about mouse events
can we do backwards compat in a predictable way
without creating other issues
SG: but some sites are already broken with keyboards
JR: keyboard interaction model is a lot different than the new
devices
<patrick_h_lauke> question for/from me is: with pointer events
we have a clean slate, but will developers fall back to the
same (wrong) practices and ignore keyboard
JR: keyboards don't hover, not pixel based
when I look at what people are building with PE, not clear
how keyboard would fit in
don't think we should add anything to the spec until we have
more data
RB: yes, agree; need more experience
AB: seems like we don't quite have enough experience and data
to agree to a change to the spec
SM: if we don't generate any compat events, think we are going
to have problem
<scribe> ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard
compat issue [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-63 - Make a proposal re the keyboard
compat issue [on Sangwhan Moon - due 2014-02-04].
PL: don't want devs to fall back on old practices
perhaps an advisory note
should be added to the spec
RB: I like that idea
non-normative note makes sense
<jrossi>
[22]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEv
ents.html#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events
[22] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#compatibility-mapping-with-mouse-events
<scribe> ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the
keyboard compat issue [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-64 - Propose a non-normative note re
the keyboard compat issue [on Patrick Lauke - due 2014-02-04].
JR: we already have something like that and we can add some
more text
<patrick_h_lauke> JR: add to the note importance about a11y
<patrick_h_lauke> RB: also add focus/blur advice
Touch-action to SVG elements
AB: this thread was started by Gnanasekar S, January 13
[24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/att-0016/00-part.
... Rick sent two replies: first
[25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0018.html and second is
[26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0024.html.
[24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/att-0016/00-part.
[25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0018.html
[26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0024.html.
RB: he works for Samsung in India
he has been landing some patches in Blink
I encouraged him to send this message
AB: What's the group's position on this? Do we do nothing, is a
minor clarification/tweak to the PE spec needed, or something
else?
RB: my reading of the spec is that touch-action doesn't apply
to SVG elements
JR: perhaps the problem is the text wasn't meant to be plural
RB: perhaps we just need a clarification then
JR: use "The" SVG element
... would be good if Doug were here
AB: good point
<scribe> ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG
element issue [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-65 - Create a proposal to address the
svg element issue [on Jacob Rossi - due 2014-02-04].
<patrick_h_lauke> sorry folks, have to shoot off
RB: also need to make sure the use of "block" is correct
<patrick_h_lauke> feel free to assign anything more to me later
from "my" topics
JR: we can certainly reach out to the SVG WG
RB: yeah, good idea
let's make sure we get them to help us get the text correct
Bug 24346; Clarifications on Pointer Events Types section;
AB: this bug was filed by Patrick on January 21.
[28]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346 as a
followup to the "`List of Pointer Events` table default
actions" thread between Patrick and Rick on January 17
[29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0025.html
... do we want to discuss this now?
[28] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24346
[29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0025.html
RB: I think Jacob replied
JR: I think Patrick proposed text but I have made the change
RB: I made some minor tweaks too
<scribe> ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement
during the 28-Jan-2014 call [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-66 - Address bug 24346 per the
agreement during the 28-jan-2014 call [on Jacob Rossi - due
2014-02-04].
Bug 24348; pointerdown/pointerup/pointercancel on non-hover devices;
AB: Patrick filed this bug on 21-Jan-2014
[31]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24348.
... Jacob fixed the bug in in latest ED
[32]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/default/point
erEvents.html via two changsets (URLs are in the bug).
... is there anything we need to discuss or is the latest ED
with Jacob's two changes OK?
[31] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24348.
[32] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/default/pointerEvents.html
RB: I agree Jacob's patches are good
AB: any objections?
[ None ]
RESOLUTION: Jacob's patches for bug 24348 are OK
Clarification on "cancelling" pointerdown
AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22
[33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0041.html. Matt replied
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0048.html.
... do we need a minor clarification or is there something
more?
[33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0041.html.
[34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0048.html.
RB: I agree with Matt's comment
JR: yes, need a DOM4 reference
<scribe> ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on
'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the
discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Create a bug for the
"clarification on 'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address
it per the discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Jacob Rossi - due
2014-02-04].
initial thoughts: pointerup and "click"/"contextmenu";
AB: Patrick started this thread on January 22
[36]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0042.html. Jacob replied on January 24
[37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0055.html.
[36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0042.html.
[37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0055.html.
SM: I'm looking at bug on Opera mobile with touch events
there is a scenario where touch cancel causes some compat
issues
think we are going to have the same problem with
pointerevents
JR: re ordering, I replied to Patrick with my thoughts
different solutions have been implememted
SM: context menu can obstruct the pointer
and in that case, it should be canceled
JR: if press and hold on Safari, menu appears below finger
can expect cancel happening
in IE we do things differently
get up first and then context menu
JR: does IE supress context menu if a move is in place
... the event should always fire
RB: I agree with Jacob that this is outside the scope of this
group
not clear that all browsers would want to agree on a behavior
SM: that's fine
RB: it wouldn't hurt to add a non-normative note about this
and mention UAs will vary here
AB: would that be ok Jacob?
JR: yes, that would be fine
RB: I can propose a sentence
SM: think we can add a note in the compat section
just need a sentence
<scribe> ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context
menu issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Make a proposal to address the
context menu issue per discussion on 28-jan-2014 [on Rick Byers
- due 2014-02-04].
Impact of pointer capture on hit testing requirements / performance
AB: Rick started this thread on January 24
[39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0056.html and Jacob replied
[40]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0058.html.
... it appears an informative note we agreed to add last
November
([41]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/3c9741587490) is
causing a performance issue, at least for Polymer
implementation of PE.
[39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0056.html
[40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0058.html.
[41] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/rev/3c9741587490)
RB: the recent text re events when crossing element boundaries,
we get a performance hit
the action is for me to do more experments
and gather some specific data
think it will boil down to a UA implementation issue that
doesn't need to be addressed in the spec
JR: I would be interested in seeing some data
want to know what the content does in these scenarios
RB: it could be a prob with our hit testig
AB: do you want an action Rick?
RB: I think we should close this for now and if/when I have an
issue I'll raise it again
AB: works for me
Should Rick's touch-action tests for blink be ported/included to PE
test suite?
AB: earlier this month Rick started this thread
[42]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
014JanMar/0014.html and no one replied.
[42] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2014JanMar/0014.html
RB: I think we already discussed this
I can add them
think we still haven't landed the PR from Microsoft and get
Scott's work done
after those actions are done, and they are higher priority,
then we can come back to this
AB: sounds very reasonable
Testing status
AB: can anyone provide a short status on testing? The minutes
from our last discussion are
[43]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
m07. My recollection is Jacob and Scott have some open actions.
... open actions are
[44]https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/open.
[43] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/07-pointerevents-minutes.html#item07.
[44] https://www.w3.org/2012/pointerevents/track/actions/open.
JR: someone else (not me) is writing our PE tests
I need to get an update from them
I'll check on the status
AB: ok, thanks
CR implementation updates
AB: any new news re implementations?
MB: Gecko impl is moving quickly
<scott_gonzalez> I have to join another call in a minute.
touch-action can be enabled (not on by default)
some parts of the impl are awaiting review
AB: that's great; thank you
<mbrubeck_> (Thanks again to MS Open Tech)
AoB
AB: anything else for today?
RB: Edge Conference in London
I'll be on a panel with Patrick
audience is experienced developers
lots of good service providers
sponsored by Microsoft
Hope to get more panelists
<smaug> hrm
AB: are you going Jacob or someone from Microsoft?
<smaug> sorry
<smaug> I'm in SF
JR: I won't be able to attend
but we may get someone
the discussion last year was great
AB: will be live streamed or recorded?
JR: yes, at least one of those
AB: Matt, how about Mozilla?
MB: I can look into it
RB: that would be good; we need to know who is supporting PE
the more representation from browser vendors the better
AB: agree
... meeting adjourned
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Jacob address Bug 24346 per the agreement during
the 28-Jan-2014 call [recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion04]
[NEW] ACTION: Jacob create a bug for the "Clarification on
'cancelling' pointerdown" issue and address it per the
discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion05]
[NEW] ACTION: jacob create a proposal to address the SVG
element issue [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion03]
[NEW] ACTION: patrick propose a non-normative note re the
keyboard compat issue [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion02]
[NEW] ACTION: rick make a proposal to address the context menu
issue per discussion on 28-Jan-2014 [recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion06]
[NEW] ACTION: sangwhan make a proposal re the keyboard compat
issue [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/28-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion01]
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 28 January 2014 17:19:31 UTC