Re: hgroup

Hi tantek,
while I very much support your right as a working group member ask for a
revert,

I do not consider it your right to imply that I amongst others who consider
hgroup to be a problem are

"armchair complainers with time on their hands being considered more
strongly than the (implied, often quiet because they don't have time
to engage in trollish forums)"


"I believe all "how to write" HTML5 books provide
documentation of how and when to use hgroup, and *know* that a few
others "Introducing HTML5"

bruce lawson co-author of "Introducing HTML5" asked for hgroup to be
reviewed by the html wg[1][2][3]

here is what he had to say:
"As I travel and teach web devs about HTML5 semantics, I'm getting feedback

and confusion about <hgroup> that gives me significant misgivings about
the utlity and thus potential uptake of the element.

People have difficulty grasping the meaning of an element with no meaning
other than to preserve the outlining algorithm.

Personally, I don't see people currently using h1+h2 for title and
subtitle anyway (the usecase that hgroup serves)"


there are around 6 diiferent proposals to modify/replace I find it hard to
believe all of them are from trolls and complainers.
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/164

[1]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jan/0307.html
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Dec/0012.html
[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0396.html


regards
stevef

On 3 May 2011 22:34, Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:

> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 14:12, Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> If anyone actually wants hgroup back (as in, actually included in the
> spec, not just dropped via a different process), they can submit a revert
> request, or escalate the bug to an issue. If no one objects, the chairs will
> assume there is consensus on this change.
> >
> > Sigh.  I request a revert.  We shouldn't be making changes to the spec
> > (even just the W3C version) solely for appeasement purposes.
>
> I second that request.
>
> The removal of hgroup smells (unscientifically) like the voice of
> armchair complainers with time on their hands being considered more
> strongly than the (implied, often quiet because they don't have time
> to engage in trollish forums) voice of web developers / designers that
> are (may be) likely using such features. Not in all cases, just
> overall. To be clear: this an impression and not meant to direct or
> imply criticism of any particular individual in this forum.
>
> I also speak from anecdotal positive personal experience having given
> several HTML5 workshops and talks teaching/demonstrating use of new
> HTML5 markup including <hgroup>, including mention/documentation in a
> book[1] (though I believe all "how to write" HTML5 books provide
> documentation of how and when to use hgroup, and *know* that a few
> others "Introducing HTML5", "HTML5 for web designers" do).
>
> Tantek
> [1] http://tantek.com/html5now
>
> --
> http://tantek.com/
>
>

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