W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > November 2010

suggestion for abolition of <hgroup>

From: Bruce Lawson <brucel@opera.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 08:04:48 +0800
To: "HTML WG" <public-html@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.vmyiiat7h8on37@bruce-pc.local>
(Sent in a personal capacity, not representing Opera)

As I travel and teach web devs about HTML5 semantics, I'm getting feedback  
and confusion about <hgroup> that gives me significant misgivings about  
the utlity and thus potential uptake of the element.

People have difficulty grasping the meaning of an element with no meaning  
other than to preserve the outlining algorithm.

Personally, I don't see people currently using h1+h2 for title and  
subtitle anyway (the usecase that hgroup serves); I se

<h1>My wonderful site</h1>
<p class=subtitle>Rainbows and butterflies</p>

or to take a WordPress blog at random  

<div class='titlewrapper'>
<h1 class='title'>
<a href='http://blog.halindrome.com/'>Xyzzy.  Nothing Happens.</a>
<div class='descriptionwrapper'>
<p class='description'><span>Ruminations on web development, standards,  
testing, life, and trying to do the right thing in a world where the right  
thing is rarely enough.</span></p>

If the usecase of h1+h2 is considered prevalent enough or desirable enough  
to make the subtitle h2 out of the outline, can we make the outlining  
algorithm magically assume that, when there are 2 or more headings h1..h6  
adjacent in a <header>, that's an implied <hgroup>?

I can't see a use-case for multiple adjacent headings in a header that  
wouldn't be heading+subtitle(s). In the case of

<h2>Gorgeousness in a gimp mask</h2>
	<h3>Main navigation</h3>
	<a href="home.html">Home</a>
	<a href="about.html">About</a>

The <h3> in the <nav> wouldn't be considered to be a subtitle, as it's not  
adjacent to the h1 and h2.

This would presenve the outlining algorithm without the need for an  
<hgroup> element that people find confusing, and which requires knowledge  
of the  outlining algorithm in order to use it.

Hang loose and stay groovy,

Bruce Lawson
Web Evangelist
www.opera.com (work)
www.brucelawson.co.uk (personal)
Buy my HTML5 book www.introducinghtml5.com
Received on Tuesday, 30 November 2010 00:05:31 UTC

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