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Re: [Bug 7508] <dialog> needs a way to add non-speech related information

From: Stephen Stewart <carisenda@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 15:05:31 +0100
Cc: public-html@w3.org
Message-Id: <2DA3DA9F-EA9A-4423-940D-C05B48458258@gmail.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@målform.no>
On 9 Sep 2009, at 14:37, Leif Halvard Silli wrote:

> Stephen added:
>> Some examples of chat on the web can be found at:
>> http://projectcerbera.com/!dev/irc-logs/day
>> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090909
>> And also http://campfirenow.com/, which I don't think I can link  
>> to  but here's a sample of the chat HTML:
>> <tr class="enter_message message user_451844"  
>> id="message_157661845"  style=""> <td class="person">Stephen S.</ 
>> td> <td class="body"><div>has  entered the room</div></td> </tr>  
>> <tr class="timestamp_message  message" id="message_157661956"  
>> style=""> <td class="date"><span  style="display:none">Sep 9</ 
>> span></td> <td class="time"><div> 1:30 PM</
>> div></td> </tr> <tr class="text_message message user_451844 you"   
>> id="message_157661957" style=""> <td class="person"><span>Stephen  
>> S.</
>> span></td> <td class="body"><div>Testing, 1,2,3. Hello W3C.</div></ 
>> td>  </tr>  <tr class="kick_message message user_451844"   
>> id="message_157661989" style=""> <td class="person">Stephen S.</ 
>> td>  <td class="body"><div>has left the room </div></td> </tr>
>> Mibbit.com similarly uses a <table> but I think one example with   
>> <table> is enough.
> Bug 7808 [1] is about making <dialog> work *properly* - for chats  
> and other kinds of dialog.  (The report tries to show how the rules  
> for where <dt> and <dd> are allowed inside <dl> as well as the rules  
> for what they mean and how they are used inside <dl>, should apply  
> also inside the <dialog> element. Secondly it seeks to show how the  
> same kind of logic w.r.t.. text-level semantics [i.e. use of <dfn>,  
> <cite> etc] should apply in both <dialog> and <dl>.)

Sorry, I got confused by the summary: "<dialog> needs a way to add non- 
speech related information" and the current, not set in stone, status  
of HTML5.

> If you think that dialogs are better, more accessible and more  
> simply  marked up via other means, then that would be another bug  
> report. I'll only say that I think it is fruitless to say that we  
> should not have a <dialog> element if you at the same time also want  
> to advice against using <dl> for dialog. Personally I think we could  
> continue HTML 4's advice to use <dl> for dialogs, especially if we  
> add an attribute which informs that it is a dialog - see bug 7509[2].

I do think that dialogues are more simply and better marked up by  
other means, I also think that since most popular chat mark-up appears  
not to be using <dl> as encouraged by HTML 4 we should at least  
consider the alternatives, or remove it altogether and use what we  
have in <section> <h> and <p>. I lean toward the latter.

(I also think adding a bug report for every view on the spec is  
probably not that helpful, but what do I know? At this point I'm just  
one person arguing a point of view about something that's not that  
important in the grand scheme of HTML5. :)

> [1]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7508
> [2]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7509
> -- 
> leif halvard silli

Stephen Stewart
Received on Wednesday, 9 September 2009 14:06:22 UTC

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