- From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:15:54 +0000
- To: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
- Cc: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Another point to consider is that even if HTML5 included a visible @summary, it should not mean that browsers should make the @summary visible in HTML 4 (or any non HTML 5 pages) pages as that would contradict the HTML 4 spec would it not? "for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille"[1] [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-summary regards stevef 2009/2/26 David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>: > Incase it got lost in the shuffle, @summary must provide two types of > information and two types of information which keeps its value in play: > 1> @summary provides information about the structure of the table. > 2> @summary provides narrative information for the purpose of comprehention > of the data in the table. > > If we lump all of this plus whatever else we decide to through at it into > caption, the noise will drown this out. > > As steve says, keeping @summary and making it visible is the best way to > ensure continuity of information and will force authors to write better > @summary="". > > It cannot be stressed enough that just because something is used badly that > it should not be thrown away. otherwise, we are going to throw away a lot > of the web. Instead, we must find a way forward toward better use of what > we have and enhancement of what we have through the development of new > technologies which meet the needs of all. As things currently stand, we > have a devided situation. those who care about accessibility authoring > practices im ho are using html prior. Those who have other overriding > concerns are increasingly using html5. I'm not saying lest I be mistaken > once again that the developpers of html5 and those who develop with it and > push for its use are against accessibility, rather that in gutting the > foundations of accessibility without adaquate fallback forces our hand. > > > On Feb 26, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Steven Faulkner wrote: > > Hi Ian, > > "That would be ideal, but unfortunately, pages on the Web that use > summary="" almost always use it incorrectly, with horrible values that > aren't helpful to anyone, " > > This a statement of opinion not fact. Please do not continue to assert > this without providing a balanced study of summary use to back it up. > It also assumes that once available to "all users" authors would > continue to use what you assert to be "horrible values". Which does > not follow from your logic of better summaries being provided if they > are visible to all in whatever form. > > PS: I have ccd PF as the subject is under active discussion and your > opinions are useful in relation to these discussions. > > regards > stevef > > 2009/2/26 Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>: >> >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, David Poehlman wrote: >>> >>> could @summary not be taught to display to all? >> >> That would be ideal, but unfortunately, pages on the Web that use >> summary="" almost always use it incorrectly, with horrible values that >> aren't helpful to anyone, and thus we could never get browser vendors to >> actually do this. >> >> Having whatever solution we _do_ use, e.g. <caption>, be visible to all >> users from the beginning, ensures that all users get a better experience >> because bad summary="" text won't be created. >> >> (Authors typically write bad summary="" text for the same reason they >> write bad alt="" text -- they don't understand what they are doing, and >> have no way to test it. Visible text, they _do_ have a way to test.) >> >> Note that in HTML5, <caption> has been redefined to clearly include in its >> scope all the material that in HTML4 was only appropriate in summary="". >> >> -- >> Ian Hickson U+1047E )\._.,--....,'``. fL >> http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. >> Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' >> >> > > > > -- > with regards > > Steve Faulkner > Technical Director - TPG Europe > Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium > > www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org > Web Accessibility Toolbar - > http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > > -- > Jonnie Appleseed > with his > Hands-On Technolog(eye)s > reducing technology's disabilities > one byte at a time > > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Thursday, 26 February 2009 11:16:35 UTC