- From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:03:23 -0500
- To: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Cc: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Incase it got lost in the shuffle, @summary must provide two types of information and two types of information which keeps its value in play: 1> @summary provides information about the structure of the table. 2> @summary provides narrative information for the purpose of comprehention of the data in the table. If we lump all of this plus whatever else we decide to through at it into caption, the noise will drown this out. As steve says, keeping @summary and making it visible is the best way to ensure continuity of information and will force authors to write better @summary="". It cannot be stressed enough that just because something is used badly that it should not be thrown away. otherwise, we are going to throw away a lot of the web. Instead, we must find a way forward toward better use of what we have and enhancement of what we have through the development of new technologies which meet the needs of all. As things currently stand, we have a devided situation. those who care about accessibility authoring practices im ho are using html prior. Those who have other overriding concerns are increasingly using html5. I'm not saying lest I be mistaken once again that the developpers of html5 and those who develop with it and push for its use are against accessibility, rather that in gutting the foundations of accessibility without adaquate fallback forces our hand. On Feb 26, 2009, at 5:30 AM, Steven Faulkner wrote: Hi Ian, "That would be ideal, but unfortunately, pages on the Web that use summary="" almost always use it incorrectly, with horrible values that aren't helpful to anyone, " This a statement of opinion not fact. Please do not continue to assert this without providing a balanced study of summary use to back it up. It also assumes that once available to "all users" authors would continue to use what you assert to be "horrible values". Which does not follow from your logic of better summaries being provided if they are visible to all in whatever form. PS: I have ccd PF as the subject is under active discussion and your opinions are useful in relation to these discussions. regards stevef 2009/2/26 Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>: > On Wed, 25 Feb 2009, David Poehlman wrote: >> >> could @summary not be taught to display to all? > > That would be ideal, but unfortunately, pages on the Web that use > summary="" almost always use it incorrectly, with horrible values that > aren't helpful to anyone, and thus we could never get browser > vendors to > actually do this. > > Having whatever solution we _do_ use, e.g. <caption>, be visible to > all > users from the beginning, ensures that all users get a better > experience > because bad summary="" text won't be created. > > (Authors typically write bad summary="" text for the same reason they > write bad alt="" text -- they don't understand what they are doing, > and > have no way to test it. Visible text, they _do_ have a way to test.) > > Note that in HTML5, <caption> has been redefined to clearly include > in its > scope all the material that in HTML4 was only appropriate in > summary="". > > -- > Ian Hickson U+1047E ) > \._.,--....,'``. fL > http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A /, _.. \ _ > \ ;`._ ,. > Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'-- > (,_..'`-.;.' > > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html -- Jonnie Appleseed with his Hands-On Technolog(eye)s reducing technology's disabilities one byte at a time
Received on Thursday, 26 February 2009 11:04:05 UTC