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RE: an action item :)

From: Anne Pemberton <apembert@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 16:32:02 -0400
Message-ID: <01C10D4C.06369300.apembert@erols.com>
To: 'Emmanuelle Gutierrez y Restrepo' <emmanuelle@teleline.es>, Lisa Seeman <lseeman@globalformats.com>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Emmanuelle,

	The usual rules will certainly satisfy some environmental situations, but 
that is not their intent. And all environmental situations are unlikely to 
be covered by the guidelines.  I don't think that describing uses outside 
of those which enable actual disabled persons to better utilize the 
Internet, will "sell" the guidelines any better than because your neighbor 
who is ***** may want to visit your page... But that is my opinion, and you 
being in another part of the planet, may see it differently.

Anne Pemberton
apembert@erols.com
http://www.erols.com/stevepem
http://www.geocities.com/apembert45

On Monday, July 16, 2001 3:16 PM, Emmanuelle Gutierrez y Restrepo 
[SMTP:emmanuelle@teleline.es] wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In fact, the question that I tried to highlight is that, applying the 
usual
> rules covers the external factors. That which can suppose future uses of
> Internet under non usual conditions, at the moment.
>
> Regards,
> Emmanuelle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anne Pemberton" <apembert@erols.com>
> To: "'Emmanuelle Gutierrez y Restrepo'" <emmanuelle@teleline.es>; "Lisa
> Seeman" <lseeman@globalformats.com>; <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:48 PM
> Subject: RE: an action item :)
>
>
> > Emmanuelle,
> >
> > Handicapping environmental conditions are controllable at the user 
level
> > more efficiently than at the page author level. If a kiosk is located 
in
> an
> > noisy location, it should be provided with a personal hearing device
> > (movable speaker, earphones, etc.)  There is nothing the page author 
can
> do
> > to improve the situation other than comply with the usual guidelines. 
 If
> > the page or kiosk interface is provided in visible print, it should 
also
> > provide it in audio and in graphics. What else would you have a page
> author
> > do?
> >
> > As to driving --- if your hands are tied up, your mind should be on 
what
> > you're doing. By the way, there is an inexpensive device advertised on 
tv,
> > to "convert" your cell phone to a hands-free use. Advertises that it 
works
> > as well as more expensive systems, so there must be a variety of 
products
> > available already to compensate for this environmental handicapping
> > condition.
> >
> > But the most effective answer to temporarily disabling environmental
> > conditions is either to modify the hardware to accommodate if it is a
> > regularly-occuring condition, or wait and use the Internet/affected 
sites,
> > at a more appropriate time and place.
> >
> > Anne
> >
> > Anne
> >
> > Anne Pemberton
> > apembert@erols.com
> > http://www.erols.com/stevepem
> > http://www.geocities.com/apembert45
> >
> > On Monday, July 16, 2001 12:24 PM, Emmanuelle Gutierrez y Restrepo
> > [SMTP:emmanuelle@teleline.es] wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have not surely known how to choose the examples. But I don't
> > understand
> > > the interest to eliminate the external factors since, if the 
guidelines
> > keep
> > > in mind to people with disability, automatically, they cover the
> > necessities
> > > of people that are in a handicaped situation.
> > > I agree with Anne in that it is dangerous to drive and to assist to
> > another
> > > task at the same time. In Spain it is forbidden to use the mobile
> > telephone
> > > while he/she is driving. But I have understood that there are some
> > countries
> > > in those that there are highways in those that it is not necessary 
that
> > the
> > > driver maintains all his attention and, also, I know that systems of
> > > automatic conduction are designing. Anyway it can be a possible
> situation
> > in
> > > the future, that some will consider important to keep in mind and 
other
> > not.
> > > But if all agree on eliminating the external factors, me too.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Emmanuelle
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Anne Pemberton" <apembert@erols.com>
> > > To: "'Emmanuelle Gutierrez y Restrepo'" <emmanuelle@teleline.es>; 
"Lisa
> > > Seeman" <lseeman@globalformats.com>; <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 3:53 PM
> > > Subject: RE: an action item :)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Emmanuelle,
> > > >
> > > > The examples you used are unique uses of the Internet and would not
> > apply
> > > > to all web pages on the Internet - only those to be used in those
> > unique
> > > > situations. I am strongly opposed to ANY accommodation that 
encourages
> > the
> > > > user to be distracted while driving a vehicle on the same road with
> me!
> > If
> > > > you HAVE to consult the Internet while you are driving, at least 
have
> > the
> > > > sense to pull off the road and do your thing, then get back on the
> > road.
> > > >
> > > > Anne
> > > >
> > > > On Monday, July 16, 2001 7:32 AM, Emmanuelle Gutierrez y Restrepo
> > > > [SMTP:emmanuelle@teleline.es] wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > The External Factors that I have mentioned, are not limited to a
> > noisy
> > > or
> > > > > not well illuminated atmosphere neither they refer to situations 
in
> > > those
> > > > > that the user can make something to change them.
> > > > > Let us think of a person that uses a kiosk in an airport or in 
that
> > that
> > > > > drives their car and at the same time he/she has to use Internet 
or
> > in
> > > > any
> > > > > situation in the one that the hands or the user's senses are
> > hindered.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the main objective of the guidelines is people with 
disability,
> > then
> > > > they
> > > > > should keep in mind the handicap situation in that any person can
> be.
> > > > Unless
> > > > > you want to follow a "disability" definition different from the
> > > > conventional
> > > > > one internationally for the WHO.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't believe that to include external factors reduces the
> > importance
> > > > of
> > > > > the guidelines, on the contrary, I believe that for some 
managers,
> > not
> > > > very
> > > > > sensitive to the necessities of people with disabilities, this 
focus
> > ago
> > > > > more attractive the necessity to implement them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course that it is a work of EO to explain the reasons to apply
> the
> > > > > guidelines, but I believe that in the introduction it should be
> > > > mentioned,
> > > > > at least, the factors that the guidelines are kept in mind or 
that
> > they
> > > > > cover.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > Emmanuelle
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Lisa Seeman" <lseeman@globalformats.com>
> > > > > To: <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:57 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: an action item :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think Emmanuelle has made a point of other advantages of
> > following
> > > > the
> > > > > > guidelines. That in following them the site will be useable and
> > > helpful
> > > > > for
> > > > > > "the noisy or
> > > > > > not well illuminated atmospheres".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This, I think, is just usability and not about making content
> > > > > inaccessible.
> > > > > > Now our guidelines will help these situations, but they are not
> (in
> > my
> > > > > > opinion) what they were for. Therefore I prefer to not include
> > these
> > > > > > usability but not accessibility points. I think that is belongs
> > with
> > > > EO,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > another good reason for implementing the guidelines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think making people think that these guideline include things 
to
> > > help
> > > > > > people in a noisy room, will reduce their importance and
> legitimize
> > a
> > > > > "take
> > > > > > it or leave it"  attitude.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was under the impression, that we put some responsibility on 
the
> > end
> > > > > user.
> > > > > > Turning on the lighting is probably a good minimum requirement.
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Emmanuelle Gutierrez y Restrepo" 
<emmanuelle@teleline.es>
> > > > > > To: <cyns@opendesign.com>; <lseeman@globalformats.com>;
> > > > > <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 6:35 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: an action item :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe be good idea that in the introduction of the guidelines
> the
> > > > > > meticulous
> > > > > > > explanations are eliminated on the types of deficiencies that
> > cover,
> > > > > > > provided another document that explains clearly what a type 
of
> > users
> > > > > exist
> > > > > > > and in what circumstances they have been kept in mind when
> > editing
> > > > the
> > > > > > > rules.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyway, in the writing proposed by Lisa she lacks to mention 
the
> > > > > external
> > > > > > > conditions. I believe that we can classify to all the users 
and
> > > their
> > > > > > > personal circumstances in three factors to keep in mind:
> Personal
> > > > > factors
> > > > > > > (that cover the disability, the age and the illiteracy),
> > > > Technological
> > > > > > > Factors (that cover the necessity to use assistive technology
> and
> > > all
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > technologies that can be used) and External Factors (that 
cover
> > the
> > > > > noisy
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > not well illuminated atmospheres and any other obstacle 
unaware
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > person).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Emmanuelle
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: <cyns@opendesign.com>
> > > > > > > To: <lseeman@globalformats.com>; <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 2:18 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: an action item :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Short, sweet, and to the point.  I like it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Lisa Seeman [mailto:lseeman@globalformats.com]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:11 AM
> > > > > > > > To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> > > > > > > > Subject: an action item :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the ftf one of my action items was to write a 
replacement
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > of impairments catered for in the introduction.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The idea is to give people a sense of context about who and
> > what
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > guidelines are for, some awareness of what user groups and
> > devices
> > > > > > exist,
> > > > > > > > without opening a Pandora's box of classifying disabilities
> > (which
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > personally felt could get offensive)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I felt that it important to get a proposal on the table, so
> > that
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > agree if this is the kind of thing we want in principal, 
and
> > then
> > > > we
> > > > > > > > can  get pedantic about semantics and my grammar.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So in your comments, please remember to say if this is
> > > > > > > >   the kind of thing that you want content wise
> > > > > > > >   and the kind of style that we want
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is a bit plagiarized from our home site, but we do not
> >  mind.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <this is it>
> > > > > > > > Understanding the guidelines involves remembering that not 
all
> > > > devices
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > the same, (e.g. keypads, brail readers )  not all systems 
are
> > the
> > > > > same,
> > > > > > > > (e.g. voice browsers, screen magnifiers)  and not all 
 people
> > are
> > > > the
> > > > > > > same.
> > > > > > > > (From the visually impaired, low motor coordination, to the
> > > > learning
> > > > > > > > disabled, what make you unique?) In implementing the
> guidelines
> > > one
> > > > > must
> > > > > > > > attempt to cater for the maximum number of people in the
> > maximum
> > > > > number
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > scenarios. This can be achieved though a single accessible
> > > > rendering
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > multiple accessible renderings that are optimized for
> different
> > > > > > > situations.
> > > > > > > > </this is it>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
Received on Monday, 16 July 2001 16:39:51 GMT

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