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Minutes: 19 Sept 2002 WS Description WG

From: Stumbo, William K <WStumbo@crt.xerox.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:15:01 -0400
Message-ID: <FBED432D914AD3118C6C00805F1582E802759433@x-wb-0128-nt8.wrc.xerox.com>
To: www-ws-desc@w3.org
Cc: jmarsh@microsoft.com, "Stumbo, William K" <WStumbo@crt.xerox.com>

Web Services Description Working Group
   September 19, 2002


 Mike Ballantyne        Electronic Data Systems
 David Booth            W3C
 Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
 Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
 Glen Daniels           Macromedia
 Youenn Fablet          Canon
 Tom Jordahl            Macromedia
 Jacek Kopecky          Systinet
 Sandeep Kumar          Cisco Systems
 Philippe Le Hégaret    W3C
 Amelia Lewis           TIBCO
 Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
 Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
 Jeff Mischkinsky       Oracle
 Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
 Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
 Arthur Ryman           IBM
 Waqar Sadiq            Electronic Data Systems	
 Adi Sakala             IONA Technologies
 Jeffrey Schlimmer      Microsoft
 Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
 William Stumbo         Xerox
 Jerry Thrasher         Lexmark
 William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard
 Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
 Don Wright             Lexmark
 Joyce Yang             Oracle

 Michael Champion       Software AG
 Laurent De Teneuille   L'Echangeur
 Tim Finin              University of Maryland
 Dietmar Gaertner       Software AG
 Steve Graham           Global Grid Forum
 Martin Gudgin          Microsoft
 Dan Kulp               IONA
 Steve Lind             AT&T
 Michael Mealling       Verisign
 Stefano Pogliani       Sun
 Daniel Schutzer        Citigroup
 Dave Solo              Citigroup
 Steve Tuecke           Global Grid Forum
 Barbara Zengler        DaimlerChrysler Research and Technology
 Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc.

 Mike Davoren           W. W. Grainger
 Michael Mahan          Nokia
 Pallavi Malu           Intel
 Mike McHugh            W. W. Grainger
 Don Mullen             Tibco
 Johan Pauhlsson        L'Echangeur
 Sandra Swearingen      U.S. Department of Defense, U.S. Air Force

1.  Assign scribe.  Lucky minute taker for this week is:
      Bill Stumbo (yee haw!)

2.  Approval of minutes:
    - Sept 5 telcon [3]

    - Sept 9-11 FTF [4]

      Minor concern about misquotes in IRC log.  Discussion on minutes
      vs. transcription.  General concern with identifying key points.
      Suggestion to use section headings to help group topics.

AI -- all:  Send any missing action items to Jonathan's attention.

[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0023.html
[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0065.html

3.  Review of Action items.
DONE     2002-07-21: GlenD to send DavidB details on hosting November
                     2002-09-19:  URL posted to IRC. [25]
                     Glen states to expect additional updates
[25] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/04/f2fNovLogistics.html

RETIRED  2002-07-21: Jeffrey & Gudge to flesh out a proposal for
                     omitting operation from soap binding.

                     2002-09-19:  Part of the hoisting proposal.  Need to
                     completeness in upcoming draft.

CONTINUE 2002-07-21: Don Mullen to write up
                     an issue on making the transport attribute 
                     match the SOAP binding framework. 

                     2002-09-19:  Action item reworded.

DONE [5] 2002-09-05: Deitmar to extract remaining questions/issues from 
                     [6] and sent out in a new email thread to be opened
                     as a new issue(s).

Face to face actions follow:

PENDING  2002-09-09: Sanjiva to redo part 3.2 of his binding proposal.

PENDING  2002-09-09: Gudge to check whether there is already an issue
                     against Part 2: can you define different 
                     encodingStyles for different children of 
                     soap:Body (message parts).

PENDING  2002-09-10: Steve and Gudge to write up the portType extensibility
                     2002-09-19:  Action item reworded.

PENDING  2002-09-10: Sanjiva to produce a proposal for equivalence of 
                     (at least) top-level components in the next couple 
                     of weeks.

PENDING  2002-09-10: Gudge; Jeffrey Schlimmer; Roberto et al to write
                     to remove message and replace with complexType.

                     2002-09-19:  Action item wording agreed to.

                     Roberto stated the goal is to determine what it would
                     like if we use XML Schema constructs instead of message

DONE [7] 2002-09-10: Arthur to kick off thread on @element vs. @type,
                     perhaps by showing how to convert an existing 
                     @element into @type.

DONE [8] 2002-09-10: Arthur to write up direction and rationale to 
                     drop @use=encoded and post to wsdl wg public list. 

PENDING  2002-09-10: Gudge to provide summary of using xml schema to 
                     wrap other type systems at an appropriate level 
                     of abstraction.

PENDING  2002-09-11: Sanjiva to describe out/out-in for pub-sub. [I
                     think this should be pub-sub _without_ out/out-in.]
                     2002-09019:  Form a task force (Joyce, Sandeep, Igor,
                     Steve T, Sanjiva, Adi, Roberto, Amy) to prepare
                     about adding pub/sub as a first class citizen of WSDL

                     Sanjiva will send a note to the list describing a
                     position and seeking comment.

PENDING  2002-09-11: Jeffrey and Don define TCP binding.

New Actions as of 2002-09-19:

         2002-09-19: Sanjiva will write a Java binding

         2002-09-19: Sanjiva provide updates on Use Scenarios document to
                     Architecture Group.  
                     Need to determine whether this activity should be in
                     architecture group or moved outside.  

[5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0019.html
[6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2002Jul/0016.html
[7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0055.html
[8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0054.html

4.  FTF planning:

    Nov F2F:

2002-09-19:  No joint meeting time scheduled with the Architecture
             group at present.  Can schedule if needed.  Rooms
             available for 3 days of solid meeting.
             Meetings will be planned from Monday AM through Wednesday PM.

    Jan FTF.
2002-09-19: Sri Lanka or Sydney?  About 25 people stated they could
            attend in Sydney.  3 people stated they could not travel.
            Jonathan will poll working group to ensure that Sydney
            will work.  Host Art Hague, not member of working group.

            Alternatives if Sri Lanka or Sydney do not work out:
              Vancouver, BC [Dave Orchard]
              Toronto, ON  [Arthur Ryman]
              New York, NY [Sanjiva Weerawarana]

            Plan would be to meet week of January 14 or 21.  Need firm
            offers by next week (2002-09-19)

  Tech plenary March 3-7 in Boston, we could meet 3-4 or 6-7.

2002-09-19: Do we want a meeting in conjunction with Tech Plenary?
            General consensus is yes, some concern with only 2 days
            of meeting and conflicts with other working groups.

            Plan is to go forward with planning WG F2F at Tech Plenary.

5.  Arch harvesting of WSDL [9].  Need reviewers.

2002-09-19:  Arch group is attempting to harvest some of our work.
             Who can take a look and see if they are taking good stuff
             from them.

             Jean-Jacques -- document looks reasonable.

             Pending:  Review next week. Would like input from more

[9] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Jul/0349.html

6.   Requirements [10]
     Need to finish up and publish again.

2002-09-19: Table for one week.  Need information from Gudge on
            Semantic Web requirement.  

            Action:  Review document for 9/26/02 meeting.


7.  New Issues
	WSDL and INLINE Schema Definitions [11]

2002-09-19:  Gudge had indicated new issues to be added. 

             Enumeration of potential issues: 
              - Disallow importing of schemas except via
              - No predefined types of elements added to an embedded schema
              - Schema embedded in WSDL must have target namespace.  Cannot
                names in the undeclared namespace.
              Follow-up left to the editors.

[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0025.html

8.  BindingType proposal from Kevin [12].
    Response from Jacek [13].

2002-09-19:  Jeffery raised some concerns:
             - new user/novice user will find it hard to understand
               where information should go.  Can be addressed by adding
               a new attribute 
             - data model for binding is inconsistent with other models.  
             - should we consider this with Sanjiva's proposal?
             - can we break this down into small issues that can be

             Jacek -- concerns were summarized well.  Reusable binding is
             This idea is probably 2.0 material and not 1.2.  

             Roberto -- Clarifying question:  The use of term binding type
             is confusing.  Port and port type have a clear relationship.
             This proposal doesn't have a clear mapping.  Binding & Binding
             type.  Kevin agrees that a better name would be useful.

             Is the group interested in continuing to pursue this action?

             Straw Poll says we should continue to pursue.
                Continue:  13
                Stop:       1
                Abstain:   11

             Kevin asks that anyone with particular issues or concerns let
             him know so he can attempt to address them.

             Revisit next week.

[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Aug/0009.html
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0043.html

9.  Issue 2: SOAPAction has been deprecated, as of SOAP 1.2 [14].
    Jean-Jacques proposal at [15].  Jacek's addendum at [16].

2002-09-19:  Jean-Jacques summary:  WG wanted something better then
             Want a more general method in WSDL.  Introduce new
             element <http:field> to the HTTP binding.  Also, introduce an
             equivalent <soap:field> element to the SOAP binding.

             Jacek -- proposed name change as well as noted that some
             transports do not need to have MIME fields, and most MIME
             fields will not have parameters.  Current proposal leaves
             to much room for inconsistencies. 

             Glen -- this relates to a proposal on properties [24], there
             is a general pattern we should consider. 

             Jonathan -- group needs to review the property stuff in more

             SOAP Action can turn into a property.

             Do we need to make a late comment to the XML Protocol group?  

             ACTION:  Glen will look and see status of SOAP Actions.  Draft
             potential last call comment to XML Protocols Group.  

[14] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x2
[15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0050.html
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0056.html

10. Issue 18: Default for transport of <soap:binding> [17]. Jeffrey's
proposal at [18].

2002-09-19:  This item was closed at 2002-09-05 teleconference:
             Resolution (per 2002-09-05 minutes):
                  Issue 18 to be closed per [18] to make the transport
                  mandatory for the <soap:binding> element.

                  Issue 28 still open and may be discussed at F2F if time

[17] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x18
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jul/0122.html

11. Issue 28: transport='uri' [19]

2002-09-19:  Defer until after Glen's proposal.

[19] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x28

12. HTTP Binding Issues (6a, 41)
    Jeffrey recommends no change [20].
    Sanjiva is mulling this over [21].

    2002-09-19:  Waiting on Sanjiva -- need to introduce HTTP header
                 and / or cookie as part of binding.  Differ until after
                 Glen's proposal.

                 Should this issue be broadened to say support of all
                 features of the transport.  Again, Glen's proposal will
                 spur this conversation along.

[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jun/0102.html
[21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jul/0067.html

13. Issue 25: Interaction between W3C XML Schema and SOAP Data Model 
    Gudge's explains at [22], Roberto's options at [23].
    Waiting for more detail in ACM?

    2002-09-19:  Waiting for Gudge to provide more detail/wisdom
                 on abstract component model. 

[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jun/0186.html
[23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Jul/0071.html

14. A slice at a proposal for SOAP features/properties in WSDL [24].
    Glen Daniels

    2002-09-19:  Move up on agenda for next week, key to a lot of the
                 binding work.

                 Read proposal for next week.

[24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2002Sep/0004.html

Respectfully submitted,

Bill Stumbo   
Xerox Innovation Group
Solutions & Services Technology Center

    Phone:	585.422.0616
    Fax:	585.265.8424
Received on Monday, 23 September 2002 13:15:48 UTC

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