W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-tag@w3.org > January 2013

Draft minutes of TAG telcon 2013-01-24 now available

From: Henry S. Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 16:42:06 +0000
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-ID: <f5blibdl0o1.fsf@calexico.inf.ed.ac.uk>


and in text form below.

                                   - DRAFT -


                                   24 Jan 2013


   See also: [3]IRC log


          Marcos Caceres, Yehuda Katz, Yves Lafon, Peter Linss, Ashok
          Malhotra, Noah Mendelsohn, Alex Russell, Jeni Tennison, Henry S.
          Thompson, Anne van Kesteren (in part)

          Tim Berners-Lee, Larry Masinter

          Noah Mendelsohn

          Henry S. Thompson


     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Admin
         2. [6]March F2F location
         3. [7]Polyglot / DOM 4 issue: XML Declaration in the DOM
         4. [8]Progress on FragID finding
         5. [9]Back to DOM XML Declarations
         6. [10]Next steps for Publishing and Linking
         7. [11]Future of Privacy by design note and related privacy
         8. [12]ISSUE-57
         9. [13]XML/HTML Unification
     * [14]Summary of Action Items


   RESOLUTION: [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/20-minutes agreed as
   a correct record

   NM: Two goals for the near term:
   ... 1) Focus for the TAG, as membership changes
   ... Suggestions welcome, by email, I'll schedule discussion when it
   looks likely to be productive
   ... I need help moving beyond good top-level visions, which need
   filling in
   ... 2) Ongoing work, some nearing completion, others less concrete
   ... Need to either complete, or drop

March F2F location

   NM: 17-19 March no longer possible for TimBL
   ... And earlier hope that we might try London the preceding weekend is

   <noah> Two options: London Fri-Sun 15-17 & Cambridge 19-21 USA

   <Marcos> MC: Any WFM

   <slightlyoff> can make london, although the friday is iffy thanks to
   TC39 flight back

   <JeniT> either ok

   <slightlyoff> unlikely to make cambridge

   <plinss> either works

   <wycats> I am with slightlyoff vis a vis TC39

   <Yves> can make cambridge but will miss one day, can't for london (I
   can make 1 day)

   <Ashok> London No, Cambridge Yes

   <HST> I can only do 16-17 in London, but I have always been at risk for
   this meeting

   <wycats> can we push it forward?

   <noah> How far forward

   <wycats> these weeks seem pretty contended

   <noah> ?

   <noah> No, Tim's calendar is incredibly booked. We typically have to
   get on it 3 months in advance

   <slightlyoff> thanks for the clarification

   <wycats> It looks like slightlyoff and my preference is both London

   <wycats> I am reviewing my calendar

   <slightlyoff> I won't be in Cambridge, no

   <slightlyoff> but i'm not more important than tim...break the tie on
   his calendar

   <HST> I can't do Cambridge

   <wycats> I have an existing obligation during the Cambridge time period
   but I could cancel

   <slightlyoff> no objection, but regrets

   <slightlyoff> no, my regrets for not being able to make it...not
   anyone's fault

   RESOLUTION: Next TAG f2f will be Cambridge, MA on 19--21 March

   <slightlyoff> agree with Henry

Polyglot / DOM 4 issue: XML Declaration in the DOM

   HST: XML Core group is discussing this
   ... There's a concern that the XML Declaration is in the XML Infoset

   HST: Noah's agenda includes a contested assertion
   ... There's email reporting that a number of current browsers continue
   to support it.

   NM: Should TAG do anything right now?

   HST: Tempted to recuse myself. I'm active in the XML Core group. Not
   clear on TAG-level issue. Dropping it does seem inappropriate, or
   confusing at best.

   HST: I will certainly come back to the TAG on this if I think there's a
   genuine architectural issue here

   NM: Not clear we're ready to address this -- we would need to have some
   reason to suppose that we could get community engagement on the TAG's

Progress on FragID finding

   NM: We have a project ongoing at the moment:

   NM: That page describes goals, deliverables, success criteria


   NM: And we have a public WD: Best Practices for Fragment Identifiers
   and Media Type Definitions at

   <noah> ACTION-772?

   <trackbot> ACTION-772 -- Larry Masinter to with help from Jeni to
   propose CR exit criteria for fragids finding Due 2013-01-08 -- due
   2013-01-18 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/772

   NM: And the current leading edge is recorded in this ACTION:
   ... We are heading for CR, and we were going to discuss exit criteria
   at the (cancelled) F2F

   JT: I don't know where we are on exit criteria, I don't think I've
   heard from LM, who has that action

   JT: I have made a new editors' draft (undated:
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mimeTypesAndFragids, dated:
   , which incorporates comments from Richard Cyganiak

   JT: I think we can still go direct to CR at this point
   ... I'll take over the CR exit criteria action

   NM: Thanks

   <noah> ACTION-772?

   <trackbot> ACTION-772 -- Jeni Tennison to with help from Larry to
   propose CR exit criteria for fragids finding -- due 2013-02-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/772

   <slightlyoff> +1

Back to DOM XML Declarations

   <noah> NM: Notes that Yehuda and Alex favor discussing the DOM at the

   NM: Happy to have any topic raised by member on our telcon agenda
   ... Often good to prepare stuff on telcons before we take them up at a

Next steps for Publishing and Linking

   <noah> ACTION-773?

   <trackbot> ACTION-773 -- Ashok Malhotra to line up reviewers for
   Publishing and Linking and invite to participate in F2F -- due
   2012-12-20 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/773

   AM: We need a fair amount of work on this still
   ... The two editors, AM and LM, are both on their way off the TAG
   ... It would be great if a new member would take this up
   ... Or perhaps JT could pick it up

   NM: Points taken
   ... What do people think -- should we continue to pursue this one? If
   so, then we'll look at how

   <wycats> I'm not personally interested in pursuing it with my time

   HST: I'm conficted. I think it's potentially very important. I get
   profoundly frustrated when, knowledgeable journalists seem not to
   distinguish linking and embedding when reporting on serious cases
   involving extradition or other serious matters.

   HST: Yes, different jurisdictions are different. I wish we could do the
   service of helping. We gave it a good shot. The comments from people
   who understand better what's needed have not been supportive. So, I'd
   love to see it move forward, but I can't do it. We may have to drop it.

   YL: The legal side gave us feedback that suggests working, as we have,
   only on the technical side, we won't get there -- to take this forward
   we need to recruit help on the legal side

   NM: This feels that something we should have been able to make work, if
   we had managed to stay focussed

   <slightlyoff> it may be the case that the legal community is
   improvising too in a vacuum of settled case law

   NM: but the feedback we got from the legal side was not all consistent,
   and in attempting to follow it we lost focus
   ... When we tried to focus on the technology, I think we made some
   progress, but we couldn't quite close it
   ... I do hate to close something after so much effort

   JT: Yes, but that is a sunk cost, and it probably is time to move on
   ... So maybe a finding or a REC is not the right vehicle for achieving
   our limited goal
   ... So maybe realising that blog posts or articles in the press are
   legitimate TAG outputs
   ... is the right thing to do for this

   NM: So keep it as a work item, or not?

   JT: Keep it on the list of things to include in strategic priorties at
   the F2F

   AR: What was the driver in the first place, for taking this on?

   NM: There has been a steady trickle of legal cases [in US and UK] which
   involved sites with links and/or embedding, where public discussion was
   just muddled. And we did get, I think, requests from [the W3C's legal
   guy] Rigo Wenning, to help with this.
   ... We thought that a TAG finding on this would have more value than an
   individual's blog post

   AR: So there was a specific request from lawyers for an explicit
   technical guidance?

   <JeniT> Jonathan brought Thinh along

   <JeniT> Thinh from Creative Commons

   HST: I am not sure we had an explicit request to start us off --
   certainly some positive feedback once we got started

   <Ashok> Yes. we had a chat with Thinh

   AR: I think it would be a possible way forward to publish something
   pithy that says "Here's the relevant bits, in the TAG's opinion"

   <noah> Hmm. Did I not hear Alex suggest pointing to existing

   <slightlyoff> I'm not trying to

   NM: I think the problem is that the RFCs and related material are not
   at the right level for public consumption

   HST: I think JT's suggestion is the best we've got

   <noah> . ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of whether and how to
   pursue Publishing and Linking

   <HST:> +1

   <slightlyoff> and don't think we should try to in an absence of
   compelling demand from a userbase with authority

   PL: Couldn't we simply put this on an official TAG blog

   NM: We do indeed have such a blog
   ... But we've used it for personal posting, rather than corporate

   <HST:> [23]http://www.w3.org/blog/tag/ [link was broken, now fixed, see
   action on YL below]

   <noah> ACTION: Yves to figure out where our old TAG blog stuff is.
   [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-778 - Figure out where our old TAG blog stuff
   is. [on Yves Lafon - due 2013-01-31].

   NM: The entire finding?

   AM: It's long for a blog post, isn't it?
   ... Maybe take one part of it -- extract highlights?

   <JeniT> +1 for a series

   PL: Break it up into a series of articles would be fine

   AM: One on copyright, one on linking vs. embedding

   NM: I'm concerned about the archival status of blog posts, compared to,
   say, W3C notes
   ... Putting smaller pieces where they could be useful, yes, but not
   sure about doing it via a blog
   ... So what about notes?
   ... So some dimensions: how formal; what mechanism; how much TAG
   consensus required
   ... And beyond the TAG, e.g. LM had been interested in the fact that
   REC-track gives some community buy-in

   PL: CSS has its own blog. . .

   NM: Sure, just there is a history which we need to hook up with

   [Anne van Kesteren joins the call]

   PL: OK, let's try moving that forward again
   ... tweet about it, and improve its visibility

   <noah> . ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of whether and how to
   pursue Publishing and Linking

   AM: Yes

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of whether and how to
   pursue Publishing and Linking - Due 2013-03-01 [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-779 - schedule F2F discussion of whether and
   how to pursue Publishing and Linking [on Noah Mendelsohn - due

Future of Privacy by design note and related privacy issues

   <noah> ACTION-774?

   <trackbot> ACTION-774 -- Peter Linss to frame F2F discussion of Privacy
   by design note, and possible followup up with privacy group. Due:
   2013-01-08 -- due 2012-12-20 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/774

   NM: This started with work by Dan Appelquist wrt Javascript APIs for
   minimal disclosure

   <slightlyoff> "object capabilities"

   AM: Minimization

   NM: Then Robin Berjon shifted the focus, as Dan A. left the TAG
   ... And then Robin left
   ... And PL was given the action to take the existing content, slightly
   cleaned up, and publish it as a Note

   AM: And we also agreed to ask the Privacy Interest Group (PING) to take
   this over
   ... Also, Nick Doty is writing a document about fingerprinting, which
   makes up about half the content of our draft

   NM: So?

   AM: Abandon it

   AM: I have had no answer from PING

   NM: Draft me an email and I'll send it

   PL: The idea was that by publishing it as a Note we could hand it over
   to PING

   <noah> ACTION: Ashok to draft note to PING asking them to pick up our
   incomplete work on privacy by design by APIs [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-780 - Draft note to PING asking them to pick
   up our incomplete work on privacy by design by APIs [on Ashok Malhotra
   - due 2013-01-31].

   NM: I'll wait a few days for comments from TAG members and then send it
   -- use tag@w3.org for that, please

   <Ashok> PING: public-privacy@w3.org

   <Ashok> Here is a link to the Privacy by Design document:


   HST: JAR and I made some progress at MIT in December, JT has improved
   her draft, and is awaiting comments. I hope we will make some progress
   before the f2f, but not much in the next few weeks

   <noah> Try this link

   <noah> It's really more than ISSUE-57, we sort of use that as a
   shorthand name.

   NM: How about a briefing at the F2F?

   HST: Maybe -- ask me in a month

   <noah> ACTION: Jeni to prepare reading and discussion on Defining URIS
   (ISSUE-57) for March F2F - Due 2013-03-01 [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-781 - prepare reading and discussion on
   Defining URIS (ISSUE-57) for March F2F [on Jeni Tennison - due

   JT: Yes -- I think it's appropriate to aim for feedback on the Primer
   and discussion about next steps

   noah: this is also known as httpRange14
   ... this issue is about how to get information about things that aren't
   documents using HTTP
   ... why don't we have a session on F2F topics on next week's telcon
   ... please send emails with suggestions to the public mailing list

   <wycats> noah: can you put a "layering" item on the F2F agenda. I could
   write up a sentence or paragraph if that would be helpful

XML/HTML Unification

   noah: is there anything useful we can do about this today?
   ... I have an action to announce that it's done

   noah: I took an action to schedule discussion of the DOM stuff at the
   ... there's a raging discussion on polyglot on both the HTML and TAG
   mailing lists
   ... in part in reaction to the TAG's reply to Henri

   <wycats> I am happy to wait until the F2F to discuss so that the new
   members can get a high-bandwidth dump of existing perspectives

   <slightlyoff> sorry
   ... I'll wait to see what else people ask for me to schedule around
   this topic

   <slightlyoff> my fault

   <wycats> 1+

   Alex: I'd like to understand what's driving our interest here?
   ... what's the architectural principle, or is it because there's a

   noah: can we defer that to when Tim and/or Henry are with us?
   ... while HTML&JSON are increasingly being used, XML is still an
   important technology
   ... some people feel that publishing polyglot could help meet the
   requirements of those that want to publish HTML with an XML flavour
   ... we asked for the publication of the polyglot document

   Anne: I was on the TF, and maybe the TAG asked for polyglot, but the TF

   noah: the TF surveyed the field, yes
   ... the TAG went further than the TF

   Yehuda: I think this is related to some of the issues that the new TAG
   members are interested in
   ... and we should have a discussion about this in a F2F

   noah: we sometimes get requests that we have to respond to more quickly

   Yehuda: we should respond to those, but a F2F discussion would be

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of polyglot, the TAG's
   request to HTML WG on polygot, and HTML/XML Unification - Due
   2013-03-01 [recorded in

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-782 - schedule F2F discussion of polyglot,
   the TAG's request to HTML WG on polygot, and HTML/XML Unification [on
   Noah Mendelsohn - due 2013-03-01].

   noah: please could existing TAG members go through your actions and
   either close them or send me email about what you want to do with them
   ... if there are other things that you want to discuss next week,
   please email them to me

   <slightlyoff> I won't be able to attend next week's call (on vacation).

   <JT:> I will scribe next week

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ashok to draft note to PING asking them to pick up our
   incomplete work on privacy by design by APIs [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: Jeni to prepare reading and discussion on Defining URIS
   (ISSUE-57) for March F2F - Due 2013-03-01 [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of polyglot, the TAG's
   request to HTML WG on polygot, and HTML/XML Unification - Due
   2013-03-01 [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to schedule F2F discussion of whether and how to
   pursue Publishing and Linking - Due 2013-03-01 [recorded in
   [NEW] ACTION: Yves to figure out where our old TAG blog stuff is.
   [recorded in

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [37]scribe.perl version 1.135
    ([38]CVS log)
    $Date: 2013-01-28 16:39:48 $


   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-agenda.html
   3. http://www.w3.org/2013/01/24-tagmem-irc
   4. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#agenda
   5. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item01
   6. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item02
   7. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item03
   8. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item05
   9. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item06
  10. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item07
  11. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item08
  12. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item09
  13. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#item10
  14. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#ActionSummary
  15. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/20-minutes
  16. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/fragids.html
  17. http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-fragid-best-practices-20121025/
  18. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/772
  19. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mimeTypesAndFragids
  20. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mimeTypesAndFragids-2013-01-05.html
  21. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/772
  22. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/773
  23. http://www.w3.org/blog/tag/
  24. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action01
  25. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action02
  26. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/774
  27. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action03
  28. http://darobin.github.com/api-design-privacy/api-design-privacy.html
  29. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/defininguris.html
  30. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action04
  31. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action05
  32. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action03
  33. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action04
  34. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action05
  35. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action02
  36. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/01/24-minutes.html#action01
  37. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  38. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

       Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
      10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
                Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk
                       URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
 [mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam]
Received on Monday, 28 January 2013 16:42:35 UTC

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