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Telcon minutes: 2010-09-23

From: Henry S. Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:28:12 +0100
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-ID: <f5b8w2nmyr7.fsf@calexico.inf.ed.ac.uk>
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Draft minutes now available at

  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html

and below.

ht
- --------------
                                   - DRAFT -

                  Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

23 Sep 2010

   [2]Agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          John Kemp, Yves Lafon, Larry Masinter, Noah Mendelsohn, Jonathan
          Rees, Henry S. Thompson

   Regrets
          Ashok Malhotra, Tim Berners-Lee, Dan Appelquist

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Henry S. Thompson

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Admin
         2. [6]ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): TPAC meeting with IETF
         3. [7]TP/AC as such
         4. [8]ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): IETF Draft on MIME
         5. [9]Privacy Workshop
         6. [10]Evercookies
         7. [11]Overdue actions
     * [12]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________

   <Yves> Agenda: [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-agenda

Admin

   <noah> JohnK, can you scribe next week please?

   NM: Call next week -- AM is up to scribe, but not here. . .
   ... Regrets from AM

   JR: Probably not here

   <johnk> it will be difficult for me to scribe or attend next week (I'll be
   at risk it seems)

   <johnk> but I will check

   NM: Working to get TBL's dates. . .

   NM: YL is next

   YL: I could if necessary

   NM: Minutes of the 16th: [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes
   ... Approved

   <masinter> +1 minutes are ok

   JR: I read them, they're good

   NM: F2F arrangements as in the past, no local arrangements page yet
   ... TVR has a hard stop at 1700 each day, at which point we will have to
   leave. . .

   HT: I have to leave after lunch on Thursday.
   ... If we could interest others from Google to be interested in meeting,
   perhaps we do not have a hard stop?

   NM: Outside visitor session?

   HT: Yes.

   JR: You do not have to agree to the NDA in order to enter the building
   ... you just get a black spot on your badge

   LM: I have an IRI editors' call at 1700 on Tuesday
   ... other TAG members would be welcome on the call
   ... but that would require a space at Google. . .

   NM: Official action?

   LM: Perhaps not. . .

   NM: How best to make use of visitors' presence?
   ... Silence gives consent to my proceeding with this

   <masinter>  of  the  people  you mentioned, the relationship of web to
   ECMAscript seems to be a common topic... Javascript being an important
   component of WebApps

   NM: Still would like to hear from anyone who has writing in progress, or
   could have, wrt WebApps

   <noah> ACTION-463?

   <trackbot> ACTION-463 -- Noah Mendelsohn to respond positively to Mark
   Nottingham  regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC -- due 2010-09-23 --
   PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/463

ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): TPAC meeting with IETF

   <noah> ACTION-464?

   <trackbot>  ACTION-464 -- Yves Lafon to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF
   meeting at TPAC -- due 2010-10-23 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/464

   YL: I spoke with Alexey, but he is headed out on vacation

   NM: Mark Nottingham said Alexey was pbly more flexible than the TAG would be
   ... How about Thursday p.m.?

   YL: As long as we avoid the AC

   NM: So it's TBL, YL, NM and LM -- YL, liaise with Amy to find a time which
   works for TBL?

   YL: Will do

   <noah> ACTION-463?

   <trackbot> ACTION-463 -- Noah Mendelsohn to respond positively to Mark
   Nottingham  regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC -- due 2010-09-23 --
   PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/463

   <noah> close ACTION-463

   <trackbot>  ACTION-463 Respond positively to Mark Nottingham regarding
   meeting with Alexey at TPAC closed

   <noah> ACTION-464?

   <trackbot>  ACTION-464 -- Yves Lafon to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF
   meeting at TPAC -- due 2010-10-23 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/464

   <masinter> Until we have something scheduled, should this action be closed?

   YL: I'm looking at other possible IETF participants

   NM: Be clear that only a small part of the TAG will be there

TP/AC as such

   <masinter> is there a TAG report or section at TPAC/AC meeting?

   NM: There is currently no slot in either agenda as far as I know

   LM: I would be uncomfortable if the TAG never reports f2f to the AC
   ... not every time, but not never

   NM: We got dropped around the time a lot of pruning was done to reporting
   sessions
   ... in favour of topical sessions

   LM: Repeating a written report is not necessary, but having e.g. a 15-minute
   Q&A session might be a good thing. . .

   NM: Should I reach out to the AC agenda person(s)?

   LM: We should offer to be held accountable

   HST: +1

   NM: Will do

   <masinter> e.g., offer a 15-minute Q&A session, ask members to read TAG
   status and answer any questions they have about what the TAG is doing

   <noah>  ACTION:  Noah to offer to organizers of AC to do short session
   answering  questions  and/or  giving  TAG  status  report [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot>  Created ACTION-469 - Offer to organizers of AC to do short
   session  answering  questions and/or giving TAG status report [on Noah
   Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-30].

ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): IETF Draft on MIME

   LM: We've talked about the mismatch/shortfall in the coverage of the whole
   MIME/Web space between W3C and IETF
   ... And so I wrote a 'personal submission' to the IETF to get something
   started which both groups could endorse
   ... Four questions:

   1) 1) does the document make sense?

   2) Is it missing anything?

   3) Do you agree with the analysis of current state?

   4) Do you agree with the recommendations for future action?

   NM: : 5) Will the TAG stand up and back this?

   <masinter> right

   LM: And maybe will the TAG publish this as its own?

   [Not all TAG members on the call have read the document]

   NM: Q1: Does the document make sense?

   LM: Or, what parts don't?

   JK: I only knew what has happened, as it were, since the transfer to the Web
   of the mime system. So I found the background helpful
   ... but still not sure where we go from here. . .
   ... Is your goal to address the problems which arose as a result of the
   move?

   LM: The doc't builds towards section 6, where in particular it says to add
   info  to the registration process which the Web needs, which the email
   environment didn't
   ... and then more suggestions about W3C's place in the reg. process, and
   about sniffing

   JK: I like the sound of that

   NM: I like this a lot, at the high level that I have reviewed it
   ... Making clear that we're headed for chapter 6 early on would help
   ... I found the section on polyglot a bit unclear, without necessarily
   disagreeing
   ... "treated as two different mime types" -- what is meant by 'document' in
   that case?

   <johnk> specific comment: I'd like to see "prompt an evolution..." in the
   introduction  note that the suggested evolution is written as specific
   recommendations in section 6

   NM: On versioning and forking, as it stands this one is a bit too unaware of
   the tarpits here---we need to clarify what's uncontroversial and what is
   more speculative in this section
   ...  In  section  6,  you often are a bit too elliptical---some of the
   recommendations need to be expressed at somewhat greater length
   ... to avoid misunderstanding

   LM: A bit rough, was expecting controversy

   NM: Fine, most important then to be as crisp as possible

   <masinter> Section 6 is really rough, i was just trying to evoke things we
   might do.... it's certainly rough

   LM: Looking for help here, for sure

   <masinter> specific comments on what is unclear would help me a lot

   NM: Editorial work could reduce the risk of thrashing from misunderstandings
   ... An excellent start

   <jar> masinter, noah said in particular that "Allow commenting or easier
   update" was unclear (e.g.)

   YL: Adam Barth's draft 05 is the origin of the baked-in list problem

   LM: Do you like the proposal?

   YL: I think having a single place where sniffing is described is good
   ... Lists will need to be kept up-to-date
   ... Doing that via the mime type registry might well be a good way to do
   that

   NM: Anything else?

   <masinter> are you willing to consider action 5: make this a TAG submission
   rather than an individual one?

   <Yves> I agree with that

   NM: Can we revisit this next week? -- yes, so please read it in detail by
   next week.

   <johnk> I'm happy to spend time on this

   NM: I read the situation as TAG agreeing to pursue that, without prejudice
   as to the outcome

   <jar> +1

   LM: Good -- I don't feel a strong sense of ownership -- what I want most is
   for this to go forward, with TAG help

   <noah> ACTION-467?

   <trackbot> ACTION-467 -- Larry Masinter to revise Mime & Web blog entry,
   perhaps leading to Internet Draft -- due 2010-09-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/467

   <noah> close ACTION-467

   <trackbot> ACTION-467 Revise Mime & Web blog entry, perhaps leading to
   Internet Draft closed

   <noah> ACTION-458

   <noah> ACTION-458?

   <trackbot> ACTION-458 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of followup
   actions for TAG to coordinate with IETF on MIME-type related activities --
   due 2010-09-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/458

   <noah> ACTION-458?

   <trackbot> ACTION-458 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of followup
   actions for TAG to coordinate with IETF on MIME-type related activities --
   due 2010-09-28 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/458

Privacy Workshop

   ACTION-460?

   <trackbot> ACTION-460 -- Daniel Appelquist to coordinate with IAB regarding
   next steps on privacy policy -- due 2010-09-14 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460

   NM: This meeting is scheduled for 8,9 December in Cambridge MA
   ... HST queried whether we should approximate the next TAG f2f to that
   meeting
   ... It is a little close to our October and TPAC meetings

   HST: I think we don't have enough people here today

   NM: I am interested in attending the workshop

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to ask Thomas about TAG involvement in privacy workshop
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-470 - Ask Thomas about TAG involvement in privacy
   workshop [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-30].

   <jar> Dan is already involved...

   NM: I'm inclined to ask Thomas Roessler what kind of TAG involvement he
   would like
   ... We'll talk about f2f scheduling at the f2f

Evercookies

   NM: See [25]thread in www-tag
   ... Using local storage for more persistent cookies
   ... was being done ad-hoc, now the Evercookie library automates this
   ... which works hard to preserve itself

   <jar> it was very clear that the purpose was to raise an alarm.

   LM: This cuts across webarch
   ... there's no simple fix

   NM: We are writing about good practice
   ... for webapps
   ... including privacy and client-side storage
   ... and had noted some confusion between cookies and client-side storage
   ... So we could push for some good practice in this area
   ... Clear cookies, user says sure, clear storage -- oh no, that's my email

   JK: That's the problem, these are generic mechanisms, it's hard to see how a
   UA could offer anything appropriately targetted

   NM: You could ask "Do you want to delete storage from site: xxx"

   <masinter> there are several parts of what it takes to actually use the web
   &  support it that might not be part of web architecture as originally
   designed, and that retrofitting them is difficult; phishing, for example,
   attacks something that was never directly part of what we thought was "web
   architecture"

   LM: Note that "Delete my history" is not currently part of any spec or
   recommendation
   ... it's just something that browsers do

   NM: Indeed, Web Apps can go places we haven't gone before

   LM: Phishing is another example -- where the exploit does involve some
   aspects of Web Arch
   ... there is no where that specifies that UAs should show you where you are
   in non-spoofable ways

   HST: I don't think we've ever said "UAs should show you where you are" in so
   many words, at all???

   <masinter> there's probably a lot more things like this

   <jar> what are the requirements for the web?

   HST: AM is going to include something about this in his paper on client-side
   storage for the F2F

   HST: I worry about calling for an arms race. Could happen whether we do or
   don't, but it's a worry.
   ... Client-side stored material is used for so many different things. Making
   the evercookie look like email, for example, is going to make it hard for
   browsers to do the right thing. Impossible task.

   NM: Yes, maybe we just need the press to do this for us by raising the alarm

   <jar> Secure Information Flow Analysis ??

   YL: Studying all the ways Client-side storage is happening is a good idea
   independently of the Evercoookie issue

Overdue actions

   <noah> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner

   <noah> ACTION-416?

   <trackbot> ACTION-416 -- John Kemp to work on diagrams in "From Server-side
   to client-side" section of webapps material -- due 2010-09-01 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/416

   <jar> action-416 due 2010-10-11

   <trackbot> ACTION-416 Work on diagrams in "From Server-side to client-side"
   section of webapps material due date now 2010-10-11

   <noah> action-417 due 2010-10-11

   <trackbot> ACTION-417 Frame section 7, security due date now 2010-10-11

   <noah> ACTION-280?

   <trackbot> ACTION-280 -- John Kemp to (with John K) to enumerate some CSRF
   scenarios discussed in Jun in Cambridge -- due 2010-09-01 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/280

   <noah> action-280 due 2010-10-11

   <trackbot>  ACTION-280  (with John K) to enumerate some CSRF scenarios
   discussed in Jun in Cambridge due date now 2010-10-11

   <noah> action-341?

   <trackbot> ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security
   review activities for HTML5 -- due 2010-09-01 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341

   <noah> ACTION-341 due 2010-11-15

   <trackbot> ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review activities
   for HTML5 due date now 2010-11-15

   <noah> ACTION0404?

   <noah> ACTION-404?

   <trackbot> ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership
   -- due 2010-09-15 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404

   <Yves> [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0043.html

   <noah> NM: Discuss in email?

   <masinter> action-379?

   <trackbot> ACTION-379 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check whether HTML language
   reference has been published -- due 2010-09-21 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [32]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379

   <Yves> action-404 due 2010-12-02

   <trackbot> ACTION-404 Track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership due date now
   2010-12-02

   <noah> ACTION-379?

   <trackbot> ACTION-379 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check whether HTML language
   reference has been published -- due 2010-09-21 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379

   <johnk> bad cell zone.... I dropped off

   <masinter> question is whether [34]http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/ meets the
   original requirements from TAG discussion

   NM: Propose to close this . . .

   <jar>  Aug  19  "On  19 August call, members weren't clear on level of
   commitment to author-spec. Noah needs to chase down references."

   LM: The TAG asked for something, there's a document, does it do what we
   want?

   HST: No

   NM: The action was smaller than that -- just to check that it would really
   be taken further

   HST: OK, so, I don't think you get off the hook until they publish as a REC

   LM: And, when there's a Last Call on this document, we should evaluate
   whether it meets the requirements

   <jar> scribenick: jar

   noah: OK, let's keep it open until their Last Call (or other precipitating
   event)

   <noah> ACTION-429 due 2010-10-15

   <trackbot> ACTION-429 Work on arrangements for a TAG F2F, probably @ Google
   early Oct (self-assigned) due date now 2010-10-15

   <noah> ACTION-449?

   <trackbot> ACTION-449 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of pushback
   on generic handling of fragment IDs in application/xxx+xml media types
   (self-assigned) -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/449

   <noah> ACTION-453?

   <trackbot> ACTION-453 -- Noah Mendelsohn to let 3023bis folks know that we
   are aiming to resolve generic processing concerns in Sept, after Larry
   returns. -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/453

   <noah> ACTION-466?

   <trackbot> ACTION-466 -- Larry Masinter to ask Norm, Roy and Martin for
   concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important --
   due 2010-09-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [37]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/466

   masinter has 466 on this topic; it's pending review

   <noah> close ACTION-453

   <trackbot> ACTION-453 Let 3023bis folks know that we are aiming to resolve
   generic processing concerns in Sept, after Larry returns. closed

   <noah> ACTION-449?

   <trackbot> ACTION-449 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of pushback
   on generic handling of fragment IDs in application/xxx+xml media types
   (self-assigned) -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [38]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/449

   noah: propose to close the other two, 453 and 449

   <noah> close action-449

   <trackbot> ACTION-449 Schedule discussion of pushback on generic handling of
   fragment IDs in application/xxx+xml media types (self-assigned) closed

   masinter: i used wrong action number in email, so it didn't get linked,
   sorry
   ... please look at resolution of 466

   noah: Do you want discussion next week?

   masinter: If no response, nothing to discuss. If response, maybe something
   to discuss.

   ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to ask Thomas about TAG involvement in privacy workshop
   [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW]  ACTION:  Noah  to offer to organizers of AC to do short session
   answering  questions  and/or  giving  TAG  status  report [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action01]
     _________________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [41]scribe.perl version 1.134 ([42]CVS
    log)
    $Date: 2010/09/24 17:21:08 $

References

   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-agenda
   3. http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-tagmem-irc
   4. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#agenda
   5. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item01
   6. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item02
   7. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item03
   8. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item05
   9. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item06
  10. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item07
  11. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item08
  12. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#ActionSummary
  13. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-agenda
  14. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes
  15. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/463
  16. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/464
  17. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/463
  18. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/464
  19. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action01
  20. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/467
  21. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/458
  22. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/458
  23. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460
  24. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action02
  25. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html
  26. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
  27. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/416
  28. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/280
  29. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341
  30. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404
  31. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0043.html
  32. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379
  33. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379
  34. http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
  35. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/449
  36. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/453
  37. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/466
  38. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/449
  39. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action02
  40. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action01
  41. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  42. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

- -- 
       Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
      10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
                Fax: (44) 131 651-1426, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk
                       URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
 [mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam]
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