- From: Henry S. Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk>
- Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 08:28:12 +0100
- To: www-tag@w3.org
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Hash: SHA1
Draft minutes now available at
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html
and below.
ht
- --------------
- DRAFT -
Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
23 Sep 2010
[2]Agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
Attendees
Present
John Kemp, Yves Lafon, Larry Masinter, Noah Mendelsohn, Jonathan
Rees, Henry S. Thompson
Regrets
Ashok Malhotra, Tim Berners-Lee, Dan Appelquist
Chair
Noah Mendelsohn
Scribe
Henry S. Thompson
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Admin
2. [6]ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): TPAC meeting with IETF
3. [7]TP/AC as such
4. [8]ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): IETF Draft on MIME
5. [9]Privacy Workshop
6. [10]Evercookies
7. [11]Overdue actions
* [12]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________________
<Yves> Agenda: [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-agenda
Admin
<noah> JohnK, can you scribe next week please?
NM: Call next week -- AM is up to scribe, but not here. . .
... Regrets from AM
JR: Probably not here
<johnk> it will be difficult for me to scribe or attend next week (I'll be
at risk it seems)
<johnk> but I will check
NM: Working to get TBL's dates. . .
NM: YL is next
YL: I could if necessary
NM: Minutes of the 16th: [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes
... Approved
<masinter> +1 minutes are ok
JR: I read them, they're good
NM: F2F arrangements as in the past, no local arrangements page yet
... TVR has a hard stop at 1700 each day, at which point we will have to
leave. . .
HT: I have to leave after lunch on Thursday.
... If we could interest others from Google to be interested in meeting,
perhaps we do not have a hard stop?
NM: Outside visitor session?
HT: Yes.
JR: You do not have to agree to the NDA in order to enter the building
... you just get a black spot on your badge
LM: I have an IRI editors' call at 1700 on Tuesday
... other TAG members would be welcome on the call
... but that would require a space at Google. . .
NM: Official action?
LM: Perhaps not. . .
NM: How best to make use of visitors' presence?
... Silence gives consent to my proceeding with this
<masinter> of the people you mentioned, the relationship of web to
ECMAscript seems to be a common topic... Javascript being an important
component of WebApps
NM: Still would like to hear from anyone who has writing in progress, or
could have, wrt WebApps
<noah> ACTION-463?
<trackbot> ACTION-463 -- Noah Mendelsohn to respond positively to Mark
Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC -- due 2010-09-23 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/463
ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): TPAC meeting with IETF
<noah> ACTION-464?
<trackbot> ACTION-464 -- Yves Lafon to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF
meeting at TPAC -- due 2010-10-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/464
YL: I spoke with Alexey, but he is headed out on vacation
NM: Mark Nottingham said Alexey was pbly more flexible than the TAG would be
... How about Thursday p.m.?
YL: As long as we avoid the AC
NM: So it's TBL, YL, NM and LM -- YL, liaise with Amy to find a time which
works for TBL?
YL: Will do
<noah> ACTION-463?
<trackbot> ACTION-463 -- Noah Mendelsohn to respond positively to Mark
Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC -- due 2010-09-23 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/463
<noah> close ACTION-463
<trackbot> ACTION-463 Respond positively to Mark Nottingham regarding
meeting with Alexey at TPAC closed
<noah> ACTION-464?
<trackbot> ACTION-464 -- Yves Lafon to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF
meeting at TPAC -- due 2010-10-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/464
<masinter> Until we have something scheduled, should this action be closed?
YL: I'm looking at other possible IETF participants
NM: Be clear that only a small part of the TAG will be there
TP/AC as such
<masinter> is there a TAG report or section at TPAC/AC meeting?
NM: There is currently no slot in either agenda as far as I know
LM: I would be uncomfortable if the TAG never reports f2f to the AC
... not every time, but not never
NM: We got dropped around the time a lot of pruning was done to reporting
sessions
... in favour of topical sessions
LM: Repeating a written report is not necessary, but having e.g. a 15-minute
Q&A session might be a good thing. . .
NM: Should I reach out to the AC agenda person(s)?
LM: We should offer to be held accountable
HST: +1
NM: Will do
<masinter> e.g., offer a 15-minute Q&A session, ask members to read TAG
status and answer any questions they have about what the TAG is doing
<noah> ACTION: Noah to offer to organizers of AC to do short session
answering questions and/or giving TAG status report [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-469 - Offer to organizers of AC to do short
session answering questions and/or giving TAG status report [on Noah
Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-30].
ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): IETF Draft on MIME
LM: We've talked about the mismatch/shortfall in the coverage of the whole
MIME/Web space between W3C and IETF
... And so I wrote a 'personal submission' to the IETF to get something
started which both groups could endorse
... Four questions:
1) 1) does the document make sense?
2) Is it missing anything?
3) Do you agree with the analysis of current state?
4) Do you agree with the recommendations for future action?
NM: : 5) Will the TAG stand up and back this?
<masinter> right
LM: And maybe will the TAG publish this as its own?
[Not all TAG members on the call have read the document]
NM: Q1: Does the document make sense?
LM: Or, what parts don't?
JK: I only knew what has happened, as it were, since the transfer to the Web
of the mime system. So I found the background helpful
... but still not sure where we go from here. . .
... Is your goal to address the problems which arose as a result of the
move?
LM: The doc't builds towards section 6, where in particular it says to add
info to the registration process which the Web needs, which the email
environment didn't
... and then more suggestions about W3C's place in the reg. process, and
about sniffing
JK: I like the sound of that
NM: I like this a lot, at the high level that I have reviewed it
... Making clear that we're headed for chapter 6 early on would help
... I found the section on polyglot a bit unclear, without necessarily
disagreeing
... "treated as two different mime types" -- what is meant by 'document' in
that case?
<johnk> specific comment: I'd like to see "prompt an evolution..." in the
introduction note that the suggested evolution is written as specific
recommendations in section 6
NM: On versioning and forking, as it stands this one is a bit too unaware of
the tarpits here---we need to clarify what's uncontroversial and what is
more speculative in this section
... In section 6, you often are a bit too elliptical---some of the
recommendations need to be expressed at somewhat greater length
... to avoid misunderstanding
LM: A bit rough, was expecting controversy
NM: Fine, most important then to be as crisp as possible
<masinter> Section 6 is really rough, i was just trying to evoke things we
might do.... it's certainly rough
LM: Looking for help here, for sure
<masinter> specific comments on what is unclear would help me a lot
NM: Editorial work could reduce the risk of thrashing from misunderstandings
... An excellent start
<jar> masinter, noah said in particular that "Allow commenting or easier
update" was unclear (e.g.)
YL: Adam Barth's draft 05 is the origin of the baked-in list problem
LM: Do you like the proposal?
YL: I think having a single place where sniffing is described is good
... Lists will need to be kept up-to-date
... Doing that via the mime type registry might well be a good way to do
that
NM: Anything else?
<masinter> are you willing to consider action 5: make this a TAG submission
rather than an individual one?
<Yves> I agree with that
NM: Can we revisit this next week? -- yes, so please read it in detail by
next week.
<johnk> I'm happy to spend time on this
NM: I read the situation as TAG agreeing to pursue that, without prejudice
as to the outcome
<jar> +1
LM: Good -- I don't feel a strong sense of ownership -- what I want most is
for this to go forward, with TAG help
<noah> ACTION-467?
<trackbot> ACTION-467 -- Larry Masinter to revise Mime & Web blog entry,
perhaps leading to Internet Draft -- due 2010-09-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/467
<noah> close ACTION-467
<trackbot> ACTION-467 Revise Mime & Web blog entry, perhaps leading to
Internet Draft closed
<noah> ACTION-458
<noah> ACTION-458?
<trackbot> ACTION-458 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of followup
actions for TAG to coordinate with IETF on MIME-type related activities --
due 2010-09-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/458
<noah> ACTION-458?
<trackbot> ACTION-458 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of followup
actions for TAG to coordinate with IETF on MIME-type related activities --
due 2010-09-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/458
Privacy Workshop
ACTION-460?
<trackbot> ACTION-460 -- Daniel Appelquist to coordinate with IAB regarding
next steps on privacy policy -- due 2010-09-14 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460
NM: This meeting is scheduled for 8,9 December in Cambridge MA
... HST queried whether we should approximate the next TAG f2f to that
meeting
... It is a little close to our October and TPAC meetings
HST: I think we don't have enough people here today
NM: I am interested in attending the workshop
<noah> ACTION: Noah to ask Thomas about TAG involvement in privacy workshop
[recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-470 - Ask Thomas about TAG involvement in privacy
workshop [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-30].
<jar> Dan is already involved...
NM: I'm inclined to ask Thomas Roessler what kind of TAG involvement he
would like
... We'll talk about f2f scheduling at the f2f
Evercookies
NM: See [25]thread in www-tag
... Using local storage for more persistent cookies
... was being done ad-hoc, now the Evercookie library automates this
... which works hard to preserve itself
<jar> it was very clear that the purpose was to raise an alarm.
LM: This cuts across webarch
... there's no simple fix
NM: We are writing about good practice
... for webapps
... including privacy and client-side storage
... and had noted some confusion between cookies and client-side storage
... So we could push for some good practice in this area
... Clear cookies, user says sure, clear storage -- oh no, that's my email
JK: That's the problem, these are generic mechanisms, it's hard to see how a
UA could offer anything appropriately targetted
NM: You could ask "Do you want to delete storage from site: xxx"
<masinter> there are several parts of what it takes to actually use the web
& support it that might not be part of web architecture as originally
designed, and that retrofitting them is difficult; phishing, for example,
attacks something that was never directly part of what we thought was "web
architecture"
LM: Note that "Delete my history" is not currently part of any spec or
recommendation
... it's just something that browsers do
NM: Indeed, Web Apps can go places we haven't gone before
LM: Phishing is another example -- where the exploit does involve some
aspects of Web Arch
... there is no where that specifies that UAs should show you where you are
in non-spoofable ways
HST: I don't think we've ever said "UAs should show you where you are" in so
many words, at all???
<masinter> there's probably a lot more things like this
<jar> what are the requirements for the web?
HST: AM is going to include something about this in his paper on client-side
storage for the F2F
HST: I worry about calling for an arms race. Could happen whether we do or
don't, but it's a worry.
... Client-side stored material is used for so many different things. Making
the evercookie look like email, for example, is going to make it hard for
browsers to do the right thing. Impossible task.
NM: Yes, maybe we just need the press to do this for us by raising the alarm
<jar> Secure Information Flow Analysis ??
YL: Studying all the ways Client-side storage is happening is a good idea
independently of the Evercoookie issue
Overdue actions
<noah> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
<noah> ACTION-416?
<trackbot> ACTION-416 -- John Kemp to work on diagrams in "From Server-side
to client-side" section of webapps material -- due 2010-09-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/416
<jar> action-416 due 2010-10-11
<trackbot> ACTION-416 Work on diagrams in "From Server-side to client-side"
section of webapps material due date now 2010-10-11
<noah> action-417 due 2010-10-11
<trackbot> ACTION-417 Frame section 7, security due date now 2010-10-11
<noah> ACTION-280?
<trackbot> ACTION-280 -- John Kemp to (with John K) to enumerate some CSRF
scenarios discussed in Jun in Cambridge -- due 2010-09-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/280
<noah> action-280 due 2010-10-11
<trackbot> ACTION-280 (with John K) to enumerate some CSRF scenarios
discussed in Jun in Cambridge due date now 2010-10-11
<noah> action-341?
<trackbot> ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security
review activities for HTML5 -- due 2010-09-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341
<noah> ACTION-341 due 2010-11-15
<trackbot> ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review activities
for HTML5 due date now 2010-11-15
<noah> ACTION0404?
<noah> ACTION-404?
<trackbot> ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership
-- due 2010-09-15 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404
<Yves> [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0043.html
<noah> NM: Discuss in email?
<masinter> action-379?
<trackbot> ACTION-379 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check whether HTML language
reference has been published -- due 2010-09-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [32]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379
<Yves> action-404 due 2010-12-02
<trackbot> ACTION-404 Track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership due date now
2010-12-02
<noah> ACTION-379?
<trackbot> ACTION-379 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check whether HTML language
reference has been published -- due 2010-09-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379
<johnk> bad cell zone.... I dropped off
<masinter> question is whether [34]http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/ meets the
original requirements from TAG discussion
NM: Propose to close this . . .
<jar> Aug 19 "On 19 August call, members weren't clear on level of
commitment to author-spec. Noah needs to chase down references."
LM: The TAG asked for something, there's a document, does it do what we
want?
HST: No
NM: The action was smaller than that -- just to check that it would really
be taken further
HST: OK, so, I don't think you get off the hook until they publish as a REC
LM: And, when there's a Last Call on this document, we should evaluate
whether it meets the requirements
<jar> scribenick: jar
noah: OK, let's keep it open until their Last Call (or other precipitating
event)
<noah> ACTION-429 due 2010-10-15
<trackbot> ACTION-429 Work on arrangements for a TAG F2F, probably @ Google
early Oct (self-assigned) due date now 2010-10-15
<noah> ACTION-449?
<trackbot> ACTION-449 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of pushback
on generic handling of fragment IDs in application/xxx+xml media types
(self-assigned) -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/449
<noah> ACTION-453?
<trackbot> ACTION-453 -- Noah Mendelsohn to let 3023bis folks know that we
are aiming to resolve generic processing concerns in Sept, after Larry
returns. -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/453
<noah> ACTION-466?
<trackbot> ACTION-466 -- Larry Masinter to ask Norm, Roy and Martin for
concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important --
due 2010-09-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [37]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/466
masinter has 466 on this topic; it's pending review
<noah> close ACTION-453
<trackbot> ACTION-453 Let 3023bis folks know that we are aiming to resolve
generic processing concerns in Sept, after Larry returns. closed
<noah> ACTION-449?
<trackbot> ACTION-449 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule discussion of pushback
on generic handling of fragment IDs in application/xxx+xml media types
(self-assigned) -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [38]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/449
noah: propose to close the other two, 453 and 449
<noah> close action-449
<trackbot> ACTION-449 Schedule discussion of pushback on generic handling of
fragment IDs in application/xxx+xml media types (self-assigned) closed
masinter: i used wrong action number in email, so it didn't get linked,
sorry
... please look at resolution of 466
noah: Do you want discussion next week?
masinter: If no response, nothing to discuss. If response, maybe something
to discuss.
ADJOURNED
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to ask Thomas about TAG involvement in privacy workshop
[recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to offer to organizers of AC to do short session
answering questions and/or giving TAG status report [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action01]
_________________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [41]scribe.perl version 1.134 ([42]CVS
log)
$Date: 2010/09/24 17:21:08 $
References
1. http://www.w3.org/
2. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-agenda
3. http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-tagmem-irc
4. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#agenda
5. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item01
6. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item02
7. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item03
8. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item05
9. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item06
10. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item07
11. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#item08
12. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#ActionSummary
13. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-agenda
14. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes
15. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/463
16. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/464
17. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/463
18. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/464
19. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action01
20. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/467
21. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/458
22. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/458
23. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460
24. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action02
25. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html
26. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
27. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/416
28. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/280
29. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341
30. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404
31. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0043.html
32. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379
33. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379
34. http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/
35. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/449
36. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/453
37. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/466
38. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/449
39. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action02
40. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/23-minutes.html#action01
41. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
42. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
- --
Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
Fax: (44) 131 651-1426, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk
URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
[mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam]
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Received on Monday, 27 September 2010 07:29:01 UTC