Re: [css-ruby] ruby-position on 2 line subtitles/captions

On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So TTML doesn't use UAs to render?


Both TTML and WebVTT assume that some entity, e.g., server, client side
scripting, or embedded UA functionality, will either translate to an
available directly supported renderable form, e.g., HTML+CSS, SVG+CSS,
etc., or will render directly. Consequently, there is generally an attempt
made to choose an expression that can be readily translated into an
{HTML/SVG}+CSS equivalent that preserves the intended presentation
semantics.


> JLREQ clearly states that its
> coverage is limited to regular books such as novels, so I'm not
> surprised it's not in there, but no motivations/use cases in Web nor
> UA engines concerns me a bit to define it.
>

That is a good point to make, because many folks perceive JLREQ as
articulating a wider range of requirements. It is a good reminder that it
does not, and that we should not *solely* rely on JLREQ to define all
requirements, but need to look elsewhere as well.

The semantics I am discussing here is outside of the explicit JLREQ scope,
but remains a real world requirement. So the group will need to weigh how
to proceed.


>
> Maybe we should create a wiki page for CSS Ruby Level 2 and put it
> there, unless Xidorn or any implementers wish to implement. Does that
> work?
>
> /koji
>
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> As I see it in almost every movie I watch, and in every Karaoke too,
> >> I've been wondering why there were no requests so far.
> >>
> >> Naming wise, 'outside' looks a good candidate to me. Other candidates
> >> we tried for the text-align property was 'first-last' or 'first last'.
> >> It was removed for other reasons but there were a few concerns on the
> >> naming during the review, so they might not be good candidates.
> >>
> >> Are you just asking naming ideas that fits well to CSS,
> >
> >
> > If someone has a better name than 'outside', I'm sure we could use it
> with
> > TTML.
> >
> >>
> >> or also asking
> >> as a possible addition of this value to CSS Ruby?
> >
> >
> > Since this is a real requirement that isn't discussed by JLREQ and isn't
> > addressed by the current css-ruby draft, it seems natural that such a
> value
> > should be added. It may also help when TTML is translated to HTML/CSS for
> > rendering.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> /koji
> >>
> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Xidorn Quan <quanxunzhen@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:05 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Recent work on supporting deployed Japanese Subtitling/Captions in
> >> >>> TTML
> >> >>> indicates a requirement to support ruby positioning on 2 line
> >> >>> subtitles/captions where the first line uses right/above (before)
> and
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> second line uses left/below (after). We have addressed this in TTML
> by
> >> >>> introducing an 'outside' keyword, which is interpreted as 'before'
> for
> >> >>> lines
> >> >>> 1 through N-1 and 'after' for the Nth (last) line.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I guess it would make more sense to combine ::first-line with
> >> >> ruby-position than to define a new value. It would have different
> >> >> behavior
> >> >> from what you defined here when there are more than two lines, but I
> >> >> wonder
> >> >> if either way gives an ideal result in that case.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > TTML doesn't have selectors, so that option isn't available there.
> Even
> >> > if
> >> > it were available, it doesn't seem quite proper to distribute the
> >> > semantics
> >> > of positioning in that fashion, i.e., to rely upon first line
> overrides.
> >> > But, yes, that remains an option with CSS.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> - Xidorn
>