W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > July 2013

Re: [css3-writing-modes] Examples of normal, unscaled glyphs work better than width-variant glyphs for text-combine-horizontal

From: John Daggett <jdaggett@mozilla.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 07:03:22 -0700 (PDT)
To: www-style@w3.org
Message-ID: <650138434.1935669.1373983402128.JavaMail.zimbra@mozilla.com>
Koji Ishii wrote:

>> I don't think that was ever in question. I thought the debate was
>> about resolving on the proper *default* behavior. If with-variant
>> glyphs work well for the main use-case then it seems an appropriate
>> default.
>>
>> (Defaults, by definition, are not required to work well in all
>> cases). Experts at both Adobe and Microsoft have told me that a)
>> 2-3 digits is the main TCY use-case and b) width-variant glyphs, if
>> any, should be used for this scenario. So unless we disagree on the
>> feature's main use-case I'm not sure what prevents a resolution of
>> John's proposal?
> 
> I agree that we should work on main use-case and that's what I'm
> talking about.
> 
> I agree with a), but with b) only under condition where glyphs are
> not narrow enough. Can you check with the experts if they prefer
> normal glyphs v.s. width-variant glyphs if the normal glyphs are
> narrow enough?
> 
> I guess you might have asked preference between width-variants v.s.
> scaled, and I agree width-variants should win in the case. If you
> ask normal v.s. width-variants, I suspect all of them would prefer
> normal.
> 
> And two digits with narrow enough glyphs is the most common case I
> believe.

Koji, what fonts are you looking at?  The majority of common Japanese
platform and publishing fonts ship with fixed-width digits (*not*
proportional!) and the default glyphs are typically wider than 0.5em.
I did some quick measurements for common Windows, OSX and publishing
fonts.  Below are the width of digits in em units:

  OSX fonts:
  Hiragino Mincho ProN 0.59
  Hiragino Kaku Gothic ProN 0.66
  Hiragino Maru Gothic ProN 0.65
  Hiragino Sans GB 0.66
  LiHei Pro 0.65 (Chinese)
  
  Windows fonts:
  Meiryo 0.62
  Meiryo UI 0.62
  MS Gothic 0.50
  MS PGothic 0.50
  MS Mincho 0.50
  MS PMincho 0.50
  
  Adobe fonts:
  Kozuka Gothic Pr6N 0.55
  Kozuka Mincho Pr6N 0.61
  Ryo Text PlusN 0.61
  Ryo Gothic PlusN 0.55
  Heisei Kaku Gothic Std 0.56
  Heisei Maru Gothic Std
  0: 0.69
  1: 0.58
  2: 0.69
  3: 0.69
  4: 0.69
  5: 0.69
  6: 0.69
  7: 0.63
  8: 0.69
  9: 0.69

Only the last font in the list had variable-width digit glyphs and
those are all wider than 0.5em.

So on average for these fonts, the width of two-digit pairs will be
roughly 1.2em and scaling will occur.

Please let me know what fonts you're using and I'll measure those also.

Regards,

John
Received on Tuesday, 16 July 2013 14:03:51 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Friday, 25 March 2022 10:08:32 UTC