- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:47:40 -0700
- To: www-style@w3.org
CSS3 Backgrounds and Borders
----------------------------
Scribe: jdaggett
fantasai: I've split out border-image in the current draft
other issues
<fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#border-images
<fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Jun/0074.html
interaction of border-image and box shadow
fantasai explaining responses to border-image survey
fantasai: open issues are fifth question
fantasai: exact syntax for fallback colors
fantasai: using border-image to mask box shadow
<fantasai> seems to be a slight preference for masking
<fantasai> people cite JavaScript manip
fantasai: first question just needs a decision by us
fantasai: clipping the border image
fantasai showing spec
dbaron: names for these keywords
fantasai: fill and empty
fantasai: fill means clipped by default, use fill to trigger
dbaron: with 9 slices, do you draw the middle ones or not?
<fantasai> A) Keep the middle by default. Add 'empty' to clip it.
<fantasai> B) Clip the middle by default. Add 'fill' to use it.
<fantasai> C) No keyword, always kept. (Make transparent as needed.)
stevez: simplest is (c)
dbaron: don't like the name 'empty'
<fantasai> keyword, if added, would be added to 'border-image-slice' party
bert: empty is good
stevez: doughnut?
anne: clip-middle?
fantasai: no donuts please
howcome: we're talking about a border, it shouldn't cover everything by
default
stevez: relation to background?
fantasai: on top of bg
chrisl: how does this tile?
fantasai: depends on repeat values
<Bert> empty / doughnut / hollow...
<Bert> or donut
stevez: i like (b), with or without fill keyword
fantasai: use case for filling: aqua buttons
dbaron: i vote for (c)
discussion of image types used for this, whether have alpha or not
fantasai: straw poll?
howcome: idea of border-image is to allow any image format
several: most use cases of border image would need transparency around
the outer edge any way
dbaron: you're not going to chop and slice a picture of your face
stevez: I'm in favor of anything that increases photoshop sales ;)
chrisl: b
arron: c
fantasai: c
molly: b
alex: abstain
howcome: b
jdaggett: abstain
anne: c
bert: c
dbaron: c
glazman: abstain
stevez: b
sylvain: b
glazman: survivor wins?
glazman: no use of sticks...
stevez: why c? simpler?
<fantasai> and if people complain, then you can add it later
jdaggett: abstain to c
don't have consensus here
bert: didn't designers ask for (a)
fantasai: hyatt wanted a way of clipping but doesn't care
howcome: anybody who doesn't like (a)?
howcome: can the (c) people live with (a)?
stevez: (b) makes sense for performance, get high perf by default
bert: why better perf?
stevez: by default, don't need to draw
bert: but how slow is it to blit
howcome: i can live with (a) or (b)
howcome: want to make a border out of a jpeg
daniel: conversions like this happen all the time (jpeg <==> png)
howcome: with (c) what if you have to scale the png?
howcome: worried about half pixels
dbaron: guess i'm ok with (b)
fantasai: i'm ok with (b)
anne: (b) is useless but, sure, whatever
howcome: but this should be the default
daniel: so?
arron: don't like empty, fill not so much
<dbaron> (sense that people dislike (a) because of the 'empty' keyword,
not the concept)
chrisl: i like what (b) does, whatever the keyword
fantasai: I think hyatt would like (b) for perf reasons
fantasai: but i haven't talked to hyatt in a long time
RESOLVED: Clip middle by default, add 'fill' to use it
bert: the keyword 'fill' has other uses?
<dbaron> I don't like 'fit: fill'
chrisl: fill is overloaded
molly: need to use context
stevez: fill-center, clip-center?
fantasai: no, god damn it, don't need to be so explicit
<break>
dbaron requests HTML syntax
<break over>?
<glazou> jdaggett: no, clear:both :-)
<anne> <br clear=all>
fantasai: next topic - masking issue
fantasai: chrisl to think about this
fantasai: last issue - syntax for fallback colors
chrisl: and the shorthand
fantasai: people want fallback colors
fantasai: proposal from dbaron to require background-size to follow
background-position
dbaron: already require that if both are present
dbaron quotes spec
<dbaron> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-background-shorthand-property
<fantasai> <final-bg-layer> = <bg-image> || <bg-position> || / <bg-size> ||
<repeat> || <attachment> || <bg-origin> || no-clip ||
<'background-color'>
<dbaron> where ‘/ <bg-size>’ must occur after ‘<bg-position>’ if both are
present.
<dbaron> I thought "after" meant "immediately after".
<fantasai> that part was added recently, when I was trying to fix this issue
dbaron: i think it should be immediately after
dbaron: weird to use slash as a delimiter if don't have both sides
and solves ambiguity problem
dbaron: and that would require background-position if background-size is used
fantasai: i don't like the idea of requiring one when using the other
fantasai: don't have any other ideas...
<pregnant pause>
<fantasai> Someone suggested that the fallback color should go on the
background-image property
<fantasai> background-image: url(wavy.png) / blue;
<Bert> (I think that is grammar #3 in
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Apr/0358.html )
dbaron: i'd rather say "has to come after"
<fantasai> then you could say bg-size can't come immediately after url()
<fantasai> background-image: url(wavy.png) / blue;
<fantasai> background-image: url(wavy.png) / blue;
<fantasai> er
<fantasai> background: url(wavy.png) / 100%; /* invalid */
<fantasai> background: url(wavy.png) / blue / 100%; /* valid */
ick
dbaron: that's why i want to require these together
molly: doesn't make sense?
<fantasai> background: url(wavy.png) top / 100%; /* valid */
<fantasai> background: url(wavy.png) /blue repeat-x / 100% /* valid */
<fantasai> dbaron proposes
<fantasai> background: url(wavy.png) / blue / 100%; /* invalid */
<fantasai> background: url(wavy.png) / blue center / 100%; /* valid */
<ChrisL> background: url(wavy.png) /* if css.gt.3 blue */
<fantasai> background: url(wavy.png) / lightblue blue center / 100%; /* valid */
anne: fallback color needs to be the last one
dbaron: can't distinguish that from bottom layer being color only
fantasai: the fallback color has to be associated with last image
anne: can we drop this?
fantasai explaining cgriego's example of why it's needed
<fantasai> http://skitch.com/cgriego/bmay8/tabs-and-css-fallback-colors
molly: yeah, this is useful
molly: i see the issue
anne: turn off css altogether if that's the problem
mumbling about shift-g
jdaggett: i officially hate this feature...
molly: the only thing that needs to be there is the text
molly: if the image doesn't load
fantasai: We also had some suggestions for a generic fallback mechanism
anne suggests that everyone has a fast enough connection
fantasai: the dsl in tehran is really slow
fantasai: and most people have dialup, nevermind dsl
<fantasai> background: image(wavy.svg, wavy.png, wavy.gif, blue);
anne: this is still feature bloat
molly: this makes sense
anne: this isn't needed at all
molly: if you want the feature, this notation is better
dbaron: can have commas in urls
<ChrisL> image(url(), url(), blue)
dbaron: what about other values?
anne: this is way more complex
fantasai: we've wanted fallbacks for urls for years
<dbaron> like regions within the image
<fantasai> Chris, I really would prefer to avoid the nested parentheses
molly: should come to consesus that this is needed
bert: not so black and white
<dbaron> FWIW, we designed the background layers and fallback stuff at
the October 2004 meeting.
bert: needed or wanted?
howcome: what's the motivating factor for this?
stevez: defines images off behavior
<ChrisL> ain one is to have a fallback color
dbaron: drop this feature from background
dbaron: add a value
<dbaron> we have two feature requests for the image value, fallback
and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113577#c3
fantasai: color is treated as having no intrinsic size
anne: yeah, because of me
szilles figures out network connection
anne: my main concern is that we add so many features
dbaron: i think we should drop the fallback color from the background syntax
<anne> and especially that we haven't had any deployment of them, actual
usage feedback
dbaron: whether we go forward with the image syntax
discussion of which spec to use
bert recommends writing it in chinese, less space used
RESOLUTION: fallback color dropped, explore image() syntax in another draft
other discussions of gcpm
howcome: changing discussion to gcpm
large discussion of soviet union ==> russia transform
general feeling is that this transform is definitive use case
fantasai: i'm done
daniel: all cooked and roasted
dbaron: resolution on clipped?
fantasai: dropped
dbaron: implications of dropping background-clip: context-box
dbaron: from the shorthand
dbaron explains current behavior
fantasai: background-clip: content-box is not desirable
dbaron enumerating possible sequences of keyword sequences
<dbaron> So I guess we're ok with being able to hit only 4 of the six
combinations of 'background-clip' and 'background-origin'
with the shorthand.
multiple editors editing...
molly: wow
molly: wow, thank you daniel
big clap for daniel
thanks to bert
bert: come back soon
daniel: all done
</body>
<mollydotcom> </html>
<anne> parse error
Received on Wednesday, 17 June 2009 07:48:26 UTC