- From: Al Gilman <asgilman@iamdigex.net>
- Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:55:12 -0500
- To: wai-xtech@w3.org
- Cc: dom+wai@w3.org
- Message-Id: <Version.32.20020319182334.01aa7e90@pop.iamdigex.net>
This message has remarks at AG:: interleaved in a Lynx dump of the page from
http://www.w3.org/2002/03/archives-improvements/
Dom, this I believe is most of what I would have to say. I am sorry we have a lot of our talent tied up in the CSUN conference this week.
-- start quote
[1]W3C
Proposed improvements to the mailing lists archives
Abstract and status
Since the last update of the software creating [2]W3C mailing lists
archives (HyperMail), several flaws in their structure and layout have
been identified, especially accessibility-wise.
Once this proposal is finished, it will be submitted to Jose Kahan
who'll try to implement it in the archiving software.
Please send feedback about the [3]the results to [4]dom+wai@w3.org and
specify if you agree that your email be forwarded to a public archived
mailing list. I'm especially interested in ideas about the
[5]remaining issues.
Updates
2002-03-19
Integrated new search form proposal (Olivier), explicit sort
method on period pages (Kelly)
Summary of foreseen changes
* Make the lists archives more accessible
* Add more informations about subscribing and posting on a mailing
list homepage
* Update the page on various aspects (the search engine form for
instance)
Making the lists archives more accessible
Previous discussions
This has been discussed on [6]wai-xtech in August 2001. Here are the
important threads:
* [7]Brief issues list from Al Gilman
* [8]Proposal for the mailing lists homepage from Al Gilman
* [9]Ian's proposal
AG::
I should have noted that threading in the archives does not flow over epoch boundaries. Even if this document rapidly becomes overtaken by events I think we should include a more inclusive reference to the discussion such as
http://www.google.com/search?q=wai-xtech@w3.org+%22archive%3A%22
that will pull up the additional mockups contributed in September and some of the earlier discussions.
-- resume quote
Current proposal
Here are the attemps to incorporate the various improvements suggested
until now:
Common to the 3 forms
added both a hypertext link and a link to the mailing list
archives usage help page (@@@ to be written), with
accesskey 'H'
for sake of documentation
Mailing list homepage
AG:: [editorial] This is not the homePage of the mailing list. That is the page maintained by the convenors of the list outside the archives to which the archive pro-forma text refers.
This page is the top-level index page or index of period-by-period indices.
-- resume quote
changed from 4 columns to 3, moving the link by date to the
period column
Easier to navigate
changed the title "sorted by" to "re-sorted"; added "by " to the
sorting links
to match with the previous change
added dated titles to the links to the views by thread, author,
and subject
so that links can be differentiated easily
AG:: These titles should be added into the corresponding links from other pages. Same destination, use title to make them read more or less the same.
-- resume quote
Period list
Enclosed the navigation links into a <map>
Create a skippable navigation bar
Added an anchor to the first item of the list, linked from the
top of the navbar
so that the navigation bar is really skippable
add "sort by" in the title of the links to the various sorted
views
[10]Kelly Ford's remarks (Mar 14 2002)
AG:: note I carried this into the message page. At least in part. Some of the link titleing that needs to be in more of the links from everywhere is still missing, I didn't fill it all in. There still need to be a cross-review of "all links going the same place are stated in consistent [not necessarily identical] language."
-- resume quote
Message page
Enclosed the related messages links into a <map>
Create a skippable navigation bar
Added an anchor to the begin of the message, linked from the top
of the navbar
so that the navigation bar is really skippable
AG::
First, this got put in too soon. The short path through the message page should gives author and date information before entering the message body. This is essential context. The minimum modification would be to move the 'skip' link to after the author and date dt/dd pairs.
However, in the attached edit, note that I simply elimitated the navbar at the top of the page. At this point, this is the better way to go; if we stick with the 'dl' formatting of the navbar. It is just too many lines of frontmatter in the visual display as well, at which point is simply has to go. It only make sense to put this at the top of the page if it makes sense in the visual view. The speech-optimized order leaves it for last in any case.
It is still possible to use a more contemporary visual layout with the top nav stuff either compacted in a header that takes less vertical space, or divided into a short head and a left navigation bar. But for the present linear organization with 'dl' display of the navbar it just makes sense to put the meat of the page after a very brief header and put the links to related pages at the foot. The old way.
-- resume quote
Added titles to the related messages links
So that the links be understandable without having read
the text before
Added accesskeys to the links in the navbar (@@@ one accesskey
per function, but should be applied only to the first
link filling this function)
building a common interface to the archives
AG:: There is a problem with using accesskey for 'reply' and similar items that can have multiple links. The person using the accesskey could be taken to one reply and never learn that there were more. Offhand I don't have a proposal for this, only things we could try.
-- resume quote
Adding more informations about subscribing and posting on a mailing list
homepage
Done in a different piece of software... Should it be marked up
differently for accessibility reasons?
AG:: I don't understand what is being asked, here.
How-to information for sign-on and sign-off of the list goes on the true homePage, maintained by the cognizant group, not inline in the top level index page. Even 'though it is pro-forma stuff that has to tell the standard story. If there is going to be a systematic explanation of this it is in a list footer on the emails distributed. The people who need to be instructed about this don't have mail readers that show them funny headers, nor do they parse mailto: syntax.
What chance is there of getting the message content on the message page presented some other way than in a 'pre' section? This is a problem.
-- resume quote
Updating various other aspects
This update is a good occasion to make our archives more useful and
compliant with our own guidelines.
Common to the 3 forms
made XHTML
easier to manipulate, eating our own dog food
Mailing list homepage
enclosed the title and the logo in a "head" section
cleaner, logo needed to be in a div anyway
changed the logo URI
Use the recommended one
Transitional -> Strict: removed the border attribute in the logo
link
Cleaner
changed the search form
To use the new search engine.
Removed <colgroup span="6"></colgroup>
useless
changed the td in thead to th
use the right markup for the right thing
Period list
Transitional -> Strict: removed align in <h1>, removed <strong>,
removed noshade
Cleaner
made the nav bar use a <dl> list
instead of using ugly <strong>s
Changed the dates format from "Wed, Aug 01 2001" to "Wed 01 Aug
2001"
Easier to read
Enclosed the navigation bar and the title in a head section
Cleaner, necessary for the the <map>
Enclosed the bottom navbar and generation info into a foot
section
Cleaner, necessary for the the <map>
Changed the message anchors to begin with a letter (@@@ I guess
we need to keep the old form in a <a name="57"></a> to
not break URIs)
Ids in XML must begin with a letter
Added a link to the search engine form
So that it can be accessed directly
Email page
Transitional -> Strict: removed <strong>, removed noshade
Cleaner
changed the date format from "Sun, Aug 26 2001" to "Sun 26 Aug
2001"
Easier to read
removed empty <p>
useless (?)
Moved from <strong> to a <dl> list
cleaner
Added a link to the search engine form
So that it can be accessed directly
Enclosed the bottom navbar and generation info into a foot
section
Cleaner, necessary for the the <map>
remove the (weird) empty <pre> </pre> between attachments (@@@
does not appear on the model)
Useless
AG:: I don't see any mention of fundamental changes, fixing the way that threading breaks across time epochs, or supporting threaded reading or searching across lists. A mail-me-this-message link in the archive, or a find-me-in-archives link in the distributed mail. Is any of this under consideration?
-- resume quote
Results
* [11]mailing list homepage proposal
* [12]Period view proposal
* [13]Message view proposal
Here is the search form possibility proposed by Olivier and now
implemented:
[14]Search this list for
[15]__________________________________________ [16]Search [17]Help!
Open issues
* introductory text on each mailing list: reponsability of the
maintainer of the mailing list
AG:: Yes. Separate page with very brief title/hyperlink stuff here.
* write an help page for the archives usage (accesskeys, search
form)
* is it possible to have an accesskey in ml homepages and period
pages for the link to the lastest period/message?
AG:: Is it possible to have a link to the latest? If so, it could have an accesskey.
But I am worried that we are defining too many. Maybe not.
* the stylesheets will need some care to have a nicer look
* Adding icons for recurring links: who will design them?
AG:: I don't know.
* Should there be accesskeys on the period-page navbar?
AG:: If they go the same places as the accesskeys on the other pages, yes. Please review the key nominations and other info in the four messages starting at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2001Sep/author.html#31
-- resume quote
* Is there a good reason why there is no W3C logo in the period and
message pages?
AG:: should be on period pages. Is there a small one for the message page?
-- resume quote
* the new layout of the period and email views takes much more space
on the page: should we revert it or rely on the stylesheet for
that?
AG:: We will have to see what the stylesheet can do. I do believe that the present structure is a problem for visual efficiency, but if we can just lose the top navbar on the message page I can be very happy.
* how complex should be the search form?
It could perhaps have a select which defaults to this list but has some broader scopes if the search engine can cope. But not many people will use it. Probably best to simply leave this at a simple keyword search in the current list and push all more complicated options a link away. The text of the "Help!" link should be extpanded to "more on searching" and both the next layer of explanation of the search tool and the advanced search form should be on the linked page or one more link from there.
-- resume quote
Proposed amendments
Index page
move the search form at the bottom of the page
[18]Charles' comment
AG:: mild disagreement. See my earlier remarks about the standard form and placement of nav/search tool. The search tool should not be off screen when the novice hits this page.
AG:: remove top navbar entirely from message page. compact on index pages.
-- resume quote
_________________________________________________________________
[19]Dominique Hazaël-Massieux <[20]dom+wai@w3.org> Last Modified:
$Date: 2002/03/19 13:18:09 $
References
1. http://www.w3.org/
2. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/
3. http://www.w3.org/2002/03/archives-improvements/#results
4. mailto:dom+wai@w3.org
5. http://www.w3.org/2002/03/archives-improvements/#issues
6. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/
7. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2001Aug/0048.html
8. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2001Aug/0044.html
9. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2001Aug/0049.html
10. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2002Mar/0011.html
11. http://www.w3.org/2002/03/archives-improvements/ml-index
12. http://www.w3.org/2002/03/archives-improvements/ml-period
13. http://www.w3.org/2002/03/archives-improvements/ml-message
14. http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mail-search-help#keywords
15. form field = text entry field
16. form field = submit button
17. http://www.w3.org/2002/02/mail-search-help
18. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2002Mar/0012.html
19. http://www.w3.org/People/Dom/
20. mailto:dom+wai@w3.org
Attachments
- text/html attachment: ml-message-short.html
Received on Tuesday, 19 March 2002 21:55:19 UTC