Re: Should we require labels to be always visible?

a couple/few things here to help clarify the discussion perhaps



1) (re previous post)  there is no such things as a  SHOULD REQUIREMENT.     Anything with SHOULD is not normative by definition.    It is advisory.     So it would not be an SC (which are normative). 

2) We word the SC as TRUE / FALSE statements.    There are no should’s or shall’s in an SC.      
     however you must do all of the normative requirements if you want to conform.  (that is how conformance is defined in standards).  So all SC are “Shall’s” if you will in effect. 

3) NOTES  cannot add or detract from the normative statement.  They can only explain.    Since the SC below requires as LABEL OR COMPONENT WITH TEXT ALTERNATIVE  there is no requirement for a label in the SC. Just EITHER a label  OR  a component with text alternative.      So Note 1 is not a requirement — it is simply a description of what the word label means - for those who are confused. 


Gregg C Vanderheiden
greggvan@umd.edu






> On Jan 6, 2017, at 12:36 PM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> Ø  +1 to Jonathan's interpretation/recommendation.
>  
> For the record below is the definition which is marked normative
>  
> label
> text <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#textdef> or other component with a text alternative <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#text-altdef> that is presented to a user to identify a component within Web content <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#contentdef>
> Note 1: A label is presented to all users whereas the name <https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#namedef> may be hidden and only exposed by assistive technology. In many (but not all) cases the name and the label are the same.
> 
> Note 2: The term label is not limited to the label element in HTML.
>  
>  
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group 
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com <mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
> 703.637.8957 (Office)
>  
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> From: Glenda Sims [mailto:glenda.sims@deque.com] 
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2017 12:34 PM
> To: Jonathan Avila
> Cc: Andrew Kirkpatrick; Shawn Lauriat; David MacDonald; josh@interaccess.ie; lisa.seeman; Detlev Fischer; WCAG
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?
>  
> +1 to Jonathan's interpretation/recommendation.
>  
> Glenda (Goodwitch) Sims
> 
> glenda sims    |   team a11y lead   |    deque.com <http://deque.com/>    |    512.963.3773      
> 
> web for everyone. web on everything. -  w3 goals
>  
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com <mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>> wrote:
> Ø  https://www.google.com <https://www.google.com/> – it has title=“search” and aria-label=“search”, does it need a visible label?
> 
>  
> We’ve had this discussion many times on the list.  I believe the current SC 3.3.2 requires visible labels for all input based on the normative definition and note of label in WCAG 2.0.
>  
> A visible label doesn’t have to be text and could be an icon, button or graphic such as  a “search” button that is in close proximity to the input field.  A placeholder would serve as the visual label when the field does not have text in it.  As soon as the field has text in it then another visual label would be needed.  I support the float label technique described here:
> http://bradfrost.com/blog/post/float-label-pattern/ <http://bradfrost.com/blog/post/float-label-pattern/>
>  
> Jonathan
>  
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group 
> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com <mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
> 703.637.8957 <tel:(703)%20637-8957> (Office)
>  
> Visit us online: Website <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/> | Twitter <https://twitter.com/SSBBARTGroup> | Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/ssbbartgroup> | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/company/355266?trk=tyah> | Blog <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/blog/>
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>  
> From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>] 
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2017 11:51 AM
> To: Shawn Lauriat; David MacDonald
> Cc: josh@interaccess.ie <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>; lisa.seeman; Detlev Fischer; WCAG
> 
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?
>  
> One of the other classic cases:
>  
> https://www.google.com <https://www.google.com/> – it has title=“search” and aria-label=“search”, does it need a visible label?
>  
> Thanks,
> AWK
>  
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
> Adobe 
>  
> akirkpat@adobe.com <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk <http://twitter.com/awkawk>
>  
> From: Shawn Lauriat <lauriat@google.com <mailto:lauriat@google.com>>
> Date: Friday, January 6, 2017 at 11:45
> To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>
> Cc: "josh@interaccess.ie <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>" <josh@interaccess.ie <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>>, "lisa.seeman@zoho.com <mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com <mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>>, Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de <mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?
> Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Resent-Date: Friday, January 6, 2017 at 11:46
>  
> As my two cents, I would say always required, and beyond helping around cognitive and low-vision, to situational impairments: 
> If the browser helpfully fills in all fields, with duplicate entries in four of them, you have no way of knowing what data really belongs in which field.
> If you start to fill out a form and then the phone rings, diverting your attention for an extended period, you won't remember the fields. Even if you just have focus in the field, the placeholder falls off.
> Beyond that, using placeholder as a label goes against HTML spec <https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/common-input-element-attributes.html#the-placeholder-attribute>. I know everyone does it these days, so I always say that the label should move from inside/over the input to above or next to it, so it remains visible.
>  
> Limited space comes down to a design challenge, not a reason to forgo a visible label.
>  
> -Shawn
>  
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:26 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote:
> I would say it's already a best practice... 
>  
> Lisa, are those with cognitive disabilities likely to loose track of what the field label is, if it disappears after they click on it? Is that a common complaint out in the wild about placeholder text for labels?
> 
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>  
> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
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> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:15 AM, josh@interaccess.ie <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie> <josh@interaccess.ie <mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>> wrote:
> <chair hat off>
> 
>  >Would it help the cognitive community if the label is always visible.
> 
> I like the demo David :-)
> 
> I couldn't see my clients wearing having to do that. On mobile, there are times when screen real estate is so sparse that at best you get an icon and placeholder text.
> 
> I just  don't think that would fly as a MUST, as best practice maybe. As long as it fits into the look and feel guidelines etc.
> 
> My 2 cents
> 
> Josh
> 
> 
> 
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Detlev Fischer" <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de <mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>>
> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>
> Sent: 06/01/2017 16:03:31
> Subject: Re: Should we require labels to be always visible?
> 
> That's one way of doing it, but there will be others. So the requirement might be EITHER have external visible label OR if using placeholder, show label next to field after focussing field.
> Note that some implementations keep the placeholder text visible even after focussing (mostly grey text) until you start typing, which I personally find confusing. Not sure whether some SC (COGA?) or technique addresses this yet.
> 
> David MacDonald schrieb am 06.01.2017 16:51:
> 
> 
>  Most of the sites I evaluate these days seem to have placeholder text for labels. An aria-label helps, but the label still disappears on focus or on clicking into the field.
> 
> 
>  Would it help the cognitive community if the label is always visible. So for placeholder labels, should we require that the label appears near the field when the user clicks or tabs to the field? Like this?
> 
> 
>  http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html <http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html> <http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html <http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html>>
> 
> 
>  Cheers,
>  David MacDonald
> 
> 
> 
>  CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
> 
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