Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?

Andrew,

In my book, the label can be an icon (or text).  Here is how I have our
experts consistently call this for 3.3.2 (with some thoughts related to
1.3.1 and 4.1.2)

   - Label or Instructions MUST be visible at all times to sighted users.
   - An icon (with appropriate alternative text) can serve as a label.
   Examples of common icons that label form fields (or user controls) include:
   magnifying glass (for search), 3 horizontal lines on top of each other
   (hamburger menu), gear (preferences or settings), trash can (delete or view
   trash depending on context). Remember, these are just a few examples.
   - A placeholder alone in a form field does not qualify as a label for
   sighted users because it is not always present. Note: A placeholder, then
   supplemented by a label (even if the label does not visually appear until
   after the user focuses on the field) is enough to pass - so long as a label
   is always programmatically associated.
   - Label or Instructions MUST be available at all times to a non-sighted
   users (programmatically determinable).

Of course...I have documented the title situations from H65....but do note
that all 4 examples in H65 do have visual clues/information as to the
purpose of the form control.

Glenda

glenda sims    |   team a11y lead   |    deque.com    |    512.963.3773


*web for everyone. web on everything.* -  w3 goals

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>
wrote:

> It is worth noting that ARIA14 is not a technique for 3.3.2, but the
> reason you would generally use aria-label is because you don’t have a
> visible label so I agree that is difficult to detangle.
>
> David, when you say ‘allow the title on an input to serve as a label’ do
> you mean for 4.1.2 or 3.3.2?  I assume the latter since 4.1.2 requires a
> name instead of a label, but the problem with using title is that there
> isn’t accessibility support for keyboard users with the title attribute.
>
> Jon, what if example 3 had an icon (magnifying glass) for the search
> button instead of the word “search” - would that make it fail in your view
> (assume that the alt is correctly provided)?
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
> Adobe
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>
> From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> Date: Friday, January 6, 2017 at 13:00
> To: Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com>
> Cc: "josh@interaccess.ie" <josh@interaccess.ie>, "lisa.seeman@zoho.com" <
> lisa.seeman@zoho.com>, Detlev Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>, WCAG
> <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?
> Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Resent-Date: Friday, January 6, 2017 at 13:01
>
> My thinking on that is that we allow a title attribute on an <input> to
> serve as a label,
> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H65.html
> and also an aria-label technique 14
> ARIA14: Using aria-label to provide an
> ​****​
> invisible label where a visible label cannot be used
> ​****​
> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ARIA14.html
>
> By approving those techniques, we've at least sent a confusing message
> that a visible label is not required in those situations.
>
> However, my preference is to plug those holes ... or issue an
> interpretation of 3.3.2 as per Jonathan or Glenda's examples, and remove or
> change those techniques.
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> twitter.com/davidmacd
>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> *            Including those with disabilities*
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> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Glenda Sims <glenda.sims@deque.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Have y'all seen CB Averitt's examples of placeholders that morph into
>> small labels (after you've started typing in the field)?   CB's examples
>> are posted here http://a11yideas.com/testcode/test.html
>>
>> Also, I've been calling a WCAG failure based on 3.3.2 if there is no
>> visible label.  So, if a placeholder tries to serve as a label...but
>> disappears (as you would expect) when you enter content in that
>> field....and no visual label exists at that time....I think it really does
>> fail 3.3.2.
>>
>> *3.3.2*
>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#minimize-error-cues>*
>> Labels or Instructions:* Labels or instructions are provided when
>> content requires user input. (Level A)
>>
>> Why?  Because, that field is still something that a user can input
>> into...and it is now missing it's label or instruction.
>>
>> I'm open to the idea that I may have over-interpreted WCAG...but I'm
>> usually not guilty of that mindset.
>>
>> Let me give you the situation that convinced me..that placeholders that
>> pretend to be labels, but vanish (and no visual label exists) after data is
>> enter are a failure in my book:
>>
>> Imagine a complex tax form with text fields that only have placeholders
>> as labels.  I enter my data, but I make a mistake.  I have no one to see my
>> data (and the form label) at the same time.  This puts me in a situation
>> where I cannot see the label/instruction and confirm I entered the right
>> data.  Fail:  3.3.2 Labels or Instructions.
>>
>> G
>>
>> glenda sims    |   team a11y lead   |    deque.com    |    512.963.3773
>> <(512)%20963-3773>
>>
>> *web for everyone. web on everything.* -  w3 goals
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 10:26 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would say it's already a best practice...
>>>
>>> Lisa, are those with cognitive disabilities likely to loose track of
>>> what the field label is, if it disappears after they click on it? Is that a
>>> common complaint out in the wild about placeholder text for labels?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> David MacDonald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>
>>> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>>>
>>> LinkedIn
>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>
>>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>>
>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>>
>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>
>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:15 AM, josh@interaccess.ie <
>>> josh@interaccess.ie> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <chair hat off>
>>>>
>>>>  >Would it help the cognitive community if the label is always visible.
>>>>
>>>> I like the demo David :-)
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't see my clients wearing having to do that. On mobile, there
>>>> are times when screen real estate is so sparse that at best you get an icon
>>>> and placeholder text.
>>>>
>>>> I just  don't think that would fly as a MUST, as best practice maybe.
>>>> As long as it fits into the look and feel guidelines etc.
>>>>
>>>> My 2 cents
>>>>
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>> From: "Detlev Fischer" <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
>>>> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org; david100@sympatico.ca
>>>> Sent: 06/01/2017 16:03:31
>>>> Subject: Re: Should we require labels to be always visible?
>>>>
>>>> That's one way of doing it, but there will be others. So the
>>>>> requirement might be EITHER have external visible label OR if using
>>>>> placeholder, show label next to field after focussing field.
>>>>> Note that some implementations keep the placeholder text visible even
>>>>> after focussing (mostly grey text) until you start typing, which I
>>>>> personally find confusing. Not sure whether some SC (COGA?) or technique
>>>>> addresses this yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> David MacDonald schrieb am 06.01.2017 16:51:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Most of the sites I evaluate these days seem to have placeholder
>>>>>> text for labels. An aria-label helps, but the label still disappears on
>>>>>> focus or on clicking into the field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Would it help the cognitive community if the label is always
>>>>>> visible. So for placeholder labels, should we require that the label
>>>>>> appears near the field when the user clicks or tabs to the field? Like this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeh
>>>>>> older1.html <http://davidmacd.com/widgets/
>>>>>> floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Cheers,
>>>>>>  David MacDonald
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Tel:  613.235.4902
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  LinkedIn  <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  twitter.com/davidmacd <http://twitter.com/davidmacd>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Adapting the web to all users
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              Including those with disabilities
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy
>>>>>> policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>