Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?

Hi Andrew and all,

Maybe we should reconsider that?

Title attributes/metadata on hover is a problem for some users. Hence
Issue 75 was proposed for 2.1.
https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75

Kindest regards,
Laura

On 1/6/17, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote:
> Example #3 in H65 has been the focus of most past discussion but we still
> have it: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H65.html
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
> Adobe
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>
> From: Jonathan Avila
> <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>>
> Date: Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:35
> To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>,
> Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
> Cc: Shawn Lauriat <lauriat@google.com<mailto:lauriat@google.com>>, David
> MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>,
> "josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>"
> <josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>>,
> "lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>"
> <lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>>, Detlev Fischer
> <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de<mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>>, WCAG
> <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Subject: RE: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?
>
>
> Ø  I would be strongly in favor of a new (or modified/enhanced) SC requiring
> (RFC 2119<https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt> – SHOULD
>
> I disagree with adding should into the requirement.  The way “should” is
> taken in the RFC may be one thing but it will NOT be seen that way by most
> people in the real world.  It will be seen as recommended but not required
> without people doing due diligence.  Once we start having “should” in WCAG
> then we might as well not write the SC or make it a AAA as it won’t be done.
>  The proper way to do this is the have an exception or is to define the
> definition in such a way that it allows for flexibility.  I believe this is
> already required in the current WCAG based on the normative definition and
> note.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
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> 703.637.8957 (Office)
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> From: John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2017 12:12 PM
> To: Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Cc: Shawn Lauriat; David MacDonald;
> josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>; lisa.seeman; Detlev
> Fischer; WCAG
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?
>
>> ...it has title=“search” and aria-label=“search”, does it need a visible
>> label?
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> I think there is a distinction between "NEED" and "SHOULD".
>
> In that particular (corner)case, likely not, no, but not because of the
> overarching requirement that form inputs always require labels; rather
> because this is a unique "page" that has a learned behavior reaction (you go
> to the homepage of the largest search engine on the planet, and put the
> search term into the one text input on the page).
>
> There will always be exceptions to the rule, but as a Principle
> ("Understandable") and a Guideline ("Help users avoid and correct
> mistakes.") those exceptions would be rare indeed. I would be strongly in
> favor of a new (or modified/enhanced) SC requiring (RFC
> 2119<https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt> - SHOULD) visible form labels at
> all times, using any technique we've seen on this thread (or any other that
> meets the requirement).
>
> JF
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick
> <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>> wrote:
> One of the other classic cases:
>
> https://www.google.com – it has title=“search” and aria-label=“search”, does
> it need a visible label?
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> Group Product Manager, Standards and Accessibility
> Adobe
>
> akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>
> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>
> From: Shawn Lauriat <lauriat@google.com<mailto:lauriat@google.com>>
> Date: Friday, January 6, 2017 at 11:45
> To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>
> Cc: "josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>"
> <josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>>,
> "lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>"
> <lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>>, Detlev Fischer
> <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de<mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>>, WCAG
> <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?
> Resent-From: WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> Resent-Date: Friday, January 6, 2017 at 11:46
>
> As my two cents, I would say always required, and beyond helping around
> cognitive and low-vision, to situational impairments:
>
>   *   If the browser helpfully fills in all fields, with duplicate entries
> in four of them, you have no way of knowing what data really belongs in
> which field.
>   *   If you start to fill out a form and then the phone rings, diverting
> your attention for an extended period, you won't remember the fields. Even
> if you just have focus in the field, the placeholder falls off.
> Beyond that, using placeholder as a label goes against HTML
> spec<https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/common-input-element-attributes.html#the-placeholder-attribute>.
> I know everyone does it these days, so I always say that the label should
> move from inside/over the input to above or next to it, so it remains
> visible.
>
> Limited space comes down to a design challenge, not a reason to forgo a
> visible label.
>
> -Shawn
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:26 AM, David MacDonald
> <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> wrote:
> I would say it's already a best practice...
>
> Lisa, are those with cognitive disabilities likely to loose track of what
> the field label is, if it disappears after they click on it? Is that a
> common complaint out in the wild about placeholder text for labels?
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>
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> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:15 AM,
> josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>
> <josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>> wrote:
> <chair hat off>
>
>  >Would it help the cognitive community if the label is always visible.
>
> I like the demo David :-)
>
> I couldn't see my clients wearing having to do that. On mobile, there are
> times when screen real estate is so sparse that at best you get an icon and
> placeholder text.
>
> I just  don't think that would fly as a MUST, as best practice maybe. As
> long as it fits into the look and feel guidelines etc.
>
> My 2 cents
>
> Josh
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Detlev Fischer"
> <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de<mailto:detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>>
> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>;
> david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>
> Sent: 06/01/2017 16:03:31
> Subject: Re: Should we require labels to be always visible?
> That's one way of doing it, but there will be others. So the requirement
> might be EITHER have external visible label OR if using placeholder, show
> label next to field after focussing field.
> Note that some implementations keep the placeholder text visible even after
> focussing (mostly grey text) until you start typing, which I personally find
> confusing. Not sure whether some SC (COGA?) or technique addresses this
> yet.
>
> David MacDonald schrieb am 06.01.2017 16:51:
>
>  Most of the sites I evaluate these days seem to have placeholder text for
> labels. An aria-label helps, but the label still disappears on focus or on
> clicking into the field.
>
>
>  Would it help the cognitive community if the label is always visible. So
> for placeholder labels, should we require that the label appears near the
> field when the user clicks or tabs to the field? Like this?
>
>
>  http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html
> <http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html>
>
>
>  Cheers,
>  David MacDonald
>
>
>
>  CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>
>  Tel:  613.235.4902<tel:613.235.4902>
>
>  LinkedIn  <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
>
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>
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> --
> John Foliot
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
> Deque Systems Inc.
> john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
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-- 
Laura L. Carlson

Received on Friday, 6 January 2017 17:56:43 UTC