Fwd: [MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2022-01-31

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
> Subject: [MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2022-01-31
> Date: February 10, 2022 at 3:06:13 PM EST
> To: public-credentials@w3.org
> Resent-From: public-credentials@w3.org
> 
> Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!
> 
> The transcript for the call is now available here:
> 
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-01-31-vc-education/
> 
> Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
> Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:
> 
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-01-31-vc-education/audio.ogg
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2022-01-31
> 
> Agenda:
>  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2022Jan/0032.html
> Topics:
>  1. Call Notes
>  2. Introductions & Reintroductions
>  3. Announcements & Reminders
>  4. Discussion of Internationalization in Edu VCs
> Organizer:
>  Dmitri Zagidulin
> Scribe:
>  Our Robot Overlords
> Present:
>  Deb Everhart, John Kuo, Dmitri Zagidulin, Simone Ravaoli, Stuart 
>  Freeman, Markus Sabadello, Kerri Lemoie, James Chartrand, David 
>  Ward, Chris Kelly, Eugen Neuber, Matt Lisle, Colin, LEF, Kayode 
>  Ezike, Simone , Phil Long, Colin Reynolds, Learning Economy, 
>  Taylor, Sharon Leu, Matthias Gottlieb, Jim Goodell, Nate Otto, 
>  Phil L (P1), Phil (T3), Timothy Summers
> 
> <chris_kelly_(dif)> yes loud and clear
> <dmitri_zagidulin> can anyone hear me?
> <simone_ravaioli> not yet
> <kerri_lemoie> Hopping on with Safari so I can hear.
> Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Minutes.
> 
> Topic: Call Notes
> 
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   The recording and minutes archived at our 
>  GitHub  We use Jitsi chat chat or IRC on the w3c ccg channel 2 Q 
>  speakers as well as to take notes so the the notes in the 
>  transcriptions are going to be.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Are going to be.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I've typed in chart type Q Plus to add 
>  yourself to the queue.
> 
> Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions
> 
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And if you're not not able to type just let us 
>  know voice and we'll add it to the queue all right so let's go to 
>  introductions and reintroductions it do we have new people on the 
>  call that whenever you introduce themselves.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And similarly do we have people who wants to 
>  do a quick reintroduction..
> <chris_kelly_(dif)> :wave:
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Go ahead Chris.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And if you speaking I think you might be still 
>  muted.
> Chris_Kelly_(DIF): Is my mic on them.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yes we can hear you.
> Chris_Kelly_(DIF): Perfect sorry yes I've been on the call before 
>  but it's a number of months ago since I've been so quick 
>  reintroduction is an order hi my name is Chris Kelley and I'm 
>  currently responsible for communications at the decentralized 
>  identity Foundation.
> Chris_Kelly_(DIF): The yeah have to be back.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Fantastic happy to have you here.
> <simone_> Grat to have you back, Chris
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Anyone else.
> 
> Topic: Announcements & Reminders
> 
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right does anybody have any announcements 
>  or reminders.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Marcus go ahead.
> Markus Sabadello:  Yeah just like I could also introduce myself 
>  I'm Marcus Hospital oh I'm generally trying to participate in a 
>  lot of things in ccg and other places but I don't think I've been 
>  to this call many times before so just wanted to say say hello 
>  and I'm from from Daniel take we're a small SSI company in Vienna 
>  Austria and we are quite involved with the you.
> Markus Sabadello:  .
> Markus Sabadello:  If you are.
> Markus Sabadello:  Blockchain service infrastructure where we are 
>  working with two universities in Austria and also some other 
>  universities across the you on some digital diploma use cases 
>  some also very curious to learn more about what this group is 
>  doing at the moment.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks Mark assigning a really great glad to 
>  have you and do you mind if I paste a link to your medium post 
>  here in the chat.
> Dmitri Zagidulin: 
>  https://medium.com/@markus.sabadello/transatlantic-ssi-interop-52bac6be8dfe
> Markus Sabadello:  Actual go ahead.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right Christian thank you go ahead.
> Chris_Kelly_(DIF): Hi there I have a small announcement to make 
>  is that if the decentralized identity Foundation is organizing an 
>  online event in a month reporting about various aspects of our 
>  work including educational credentials and verifiable credentials 
>  and SSI more generally if would be appropriate I will happily put 
>  a link to this video training page in the chat it is free it is.
> Chris_Kelly_(DIF):  open to everybody not just DIF members..
> Chris_Kelly_(DIF): DIF membership and it's a purely virtual 
>  event.
> https://www.eventbrite.com/e/difcon-f2f-virtual-3-tickets-162786327287
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Please do that was going to be my next 
>  question please post a link.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right anyone else.
> Dmitri Zagidulin: 
>  https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18ppWk_deojNoVirksDF93gABvQOGS4MptTQGhbCtIbs/edit#slide=id.p
> 
> Topic: Discussion of Internationalization in Edu VCs
> 
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right so let's let's get started let's 
>  talk about internationalization and localization I'm going to 
>  paste here a link to the slides that I'll be using so you can 
>  follow along I'm also going to share screen.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Though if server acts up we will all stop 
>  sharing and we can advance our own slides so here we go.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Okay so can everybody see my screen.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Yep we can see it.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Okay fabulous so.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And Kyrie to see the slides in full screen.
> <jim_goodell> yes
> Kerri Lemoie:  We can.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Okay fantastic okay so what is 
>  internationalization and localization and why is it relevant to 
>  us here at the VC edu and  Simone and Kerri I don't see the chat 
>  here in full screen so if somebody can give me a heads-up on 
>  there's questions on them.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   And then.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  You.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Sure.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Okay so internationalization and localization 
>  are related there's nice numeron IMS like i18n which I thought 
>  was a cool term.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  To avoid typing out internationalization each 
>  time so the difference though they're both related the difference 
>  is this so localization is basically what we're doing here on 
>  this call its design and specs up front so we need to make sure 
>  everybody's aware of internationalization issues in our 
>  verifiable credentials and any software and specs that we write.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   We.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  To build it in from from the start into our 
>  data models and apis and then localization refers to.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Actually translating or changing the format or 
>  changing the data in the app for the user as they interact with 
>  our software.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So specifically how does it.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Out how does it relate to us so in the call I 
>  want to start the discussion I want to highlight the importance 
>  of internationalization and localization.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I want to put the thought in everybody's mind 
>  that we want to.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Make sure that our data models in context and 
>  schemas allow for easy internationalisation we want to make sure 
>  our specs have plenty of examples so people just can see it right 
>  off the bat and bring a couple couple of interesting difficulties 
>  and advice for implementers.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   So any.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Fire.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So let's start with the simplest we know 
>  internationalization is going to involve translation many of the 
>  members of this task force like like Canadalike EU
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Huh.
> <matthias_gottlieb> I have no sound
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Deal with legal requirements and practical use 
>  cases of supporting multiple languages with verifiable 
>  credentials so what does that look like the VC data model.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And by extension the json-ld serialization of 
>  the VC data model has internationalisation built-in it allows you 
>  to for each verifiable credential to specify a default language 
>  so that for example if you're in Germany and most of you use 
>  cases going to is going to be in Germany you can specify that 
>  this verifiable credential is going to be in German.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Aah right off the bat at the top level if it 
>  fits your use case you can also override.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The language for each particular property and 
>  you have multiple languages in there I'll show you in just a 
>  second on a property by property or Claim by claim basis and in 
>  addition to specifying the language.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  You're so often with some languages need to 
>  specify the direction is it being read left to right or right to 
>  left and that is an important directive for a whole bunch of 
>  software that encodes the characters parses that displays for 
>  speech readers and so on so what's an example.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Herein.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  This is not a full verifiable credential.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Safe space it's lifted directly from the 
>  JSON-LD internationalization section of the spec but basically 
>  the relevant parts are easy in the context where we have our VC 
>  context an hour credential specific one you add the at language 
>  property.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   And.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Japanese specify English and so on and it's 
>  the iso to character language code.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And then processing software knows how to 
>  parse the languages which encodingsto use and so on in addition 
>  to specifying it at the top level.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  You can override each language per field so 
>  for example.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  If we have a mock very simplistic credential 
>  for a person that has the person's name.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The value of the name property is an array of 
>  objects and essentially each object is a translation.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  There's another notation that makes it even 
>  easier to process that instead of an array makes it a dictionary 
>  but that's an advanced use case we can bring it up later 
>  somebody's interested but.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I just want to make make sure that everybody 
>  sees the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The conventions the technology and that it 
>  makes sense in addition to specifying the language you can also 
>  at the top level.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Five the direction so for example this is a 
>  example of an object or verifiable credential in Arabic and in 
>  Arabic you have to specify that the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The direction is right to left there's part of 
>  the reason why it's good to do that is although there are string 
>  libraries that auto detect the the reading direction of the 
>  language they often try to do it by the first character of the 
>  string and sometimes especially when strings have mixed 
>  characters like in this title has has English and Arabic 
>  characters it it messes with the auto-detection so it's.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   To be explicit and set the direction.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So any questions about the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Specifying the language for a VC and 
>  specifying the reading Direction.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right so that's the that's the data model 
>  part that's the easy that's straightforward we can a very least 
>  know that our verifiable credentials can be multiple languages 
>  but that brings up the question.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  At what point do we actually localized or 
>  translate our credentials and the answer it depends on your use 
>  case for example if in your country in your jurisdiction you are 
>  legally obligated to always have credentials in let's say two 
>  languages English and French.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Yeah.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Make sense for you as the issuer to always 
>  issue.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Credentials that look like this that have an 
>  array for each translatable property in both the language that 
>  you have to support.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  By the way notice something that when 
>  translating.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Not every property is actually translate for 
>  example the types and the contexts type specifically are 
>  machine-readable symbols they don't need to be translated it's 
>  specifically the properties that you need to localize.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   But.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Two.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Back to the question of whether We're 
>  translating so if you know your primary audiences if your.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  If the language that you support the fixed 
>  subset and.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Your you don't have space constraints for 
>  example you're not trying to embed entire credentials into a 
>  qr-code.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Then it makes sense for you to at the template 
>  level in your issue or software.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Just put in all of the translations you likely 
>  to need and that way whenever anybody asks for you to issue a 
>  credential you just give it to them it's already pre translated 
>  they can do whatever they want the other option if the number of 
>  languages is unbounded or if you have space constraints or for 
>  other other reasons you could ask API time.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And this gets into VC API issues and we'll 
>  have this discussion with the VC API task force as well of how to 
>  use standard HTTP header properties that says I would like I 
>  accept this language so I would like whatever you issue to me to 
>  be retranslated pre localized in the following language so does 
>  this part make sense does this question that.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Hey I Dimitri we have a Marcos in the queue.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah Marcus go ahead.
> Markus Sabadello:  No I'm not on the Q I think I just didn't get 
>  acknowledged first time.
> Kerri Lemoie:  I'm sorry.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  No problem no problem and Marcus please feel 
>  free to jump in on all of these because you have a lot more 
>  experience with a nationalization having done the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Drop projects and working in multi language 
>  environments so please feel free to jump in and.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Stuff are correct.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   So.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Any questions about this central question.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So what else is involved let's talk about 
>  labels so so far we've been talking about translating and 
>  localizing the data itself.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So the names most often the descriptions so 
>  for example if you're dealing with a credential that is a course 
>  completion credential or diploma credential oftentimes they have 
>  a human readable description field we're in complete sentences it 
>  says this diploma does has the following requirements and is 
>  issued to such and such people and so on.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And those to be translated in multiple 
>  languages it's hard to do automatically you're very likely going 
>  to be using translators pre translating those fields and then 
>  having your software deal with that either as we said at issue 
>  time or when you're setting up the template.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  But that's the yes.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Naked.
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky): Don't know if I can actually unmute but 
>  my comment was this is all making sense we're definitely talking 
>  about it at the issuer side here and at some point you know it'll 
>  make sense to think about like what is the person consuming these 
>  badges need to do to process all of the different possible 
>  options for ways that language might be specified I think 90% of 
>  the difficulty or challenges in working with VCS that have the 
>  possibility of internationalization will definitely be at that.
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky):  consuming side turning them back into 
>  meaningful value so I'm looking forward to the rest of your 
>  presentation.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks yeah this is definitely a very relevant 
>  question to all of us working on these projects okay so we talked 
>  about translating the properties themselves like name and 
>  description and so on but what about displaying them right what 
>  about when you have a wallet software or verifier software or 
>  anything that has to do with credentials and you received a 
>  localized credential let's say it's in multiple languages or it's 
>  in.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   The.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Get a language that you requested.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And the value is translated what are you going 
>  to do with the labels now usually this consideration is left to 
>  the software developers they often have like a language so that 
>  control and depending on the language they they translate the 
>  labels so if you're if you're doing a basic verifiable 
>  educational credential like a diploma you have the name of the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So then the name of.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  School.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And the description and the labels themselves 
>  like the word description is translated into the correct 
>  language.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Normally this wouldn't be a concern or usually 
>  this isn't a concern of specification working groups like ours 
>  but the reason I wanted to bring it up to everybody is one of the 
>  interests in this group.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Is.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Being able to embed the display logic in the 
>  credential itself so for example the way Badger and other 
>  Technologies like blockcerts allow you to need to embed images 
>  with the pre-rendered credential or that allow you to embed HTML 
>  which includes the labels on the input fields and and the value 
>  substitution.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  On.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Everybody to keep in mind that specifically 
>  that display logic that is going to be embedded or linked to from 
>  the credential needs to be localized needs to be translated.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   So.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  One of one of the future calls is going to 
>  involve deterministic display Logics and what.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  What the field is out there currently and what 
>  we can do in VC do task force standardized but just keep it in 
>  mind.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Translating the values is one thing but also 
>  we need to make sure that if we're including the pre-rendered 
>  verifiablecredential we need to translate that as well again 
>  either at storage time somehow being able to specify all of the 
>  credential so sorry all of the translated labels.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Have to be dealing with if you have a small 
>  set of subsets of languages or  at issue time that if I want this 
>  credential in English and give me the labels in English and then 
>  the entire template so just wanted to put it out there next 
>  updates everybody's favorite subject.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> <phil> RDF Schema allows for properties to be defined in 
>  different languages
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Good news is that at the verifiable credential 
>  data model all of the dates are in the same format it's whatever 
>  the iso date format the one that goes.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah yeah year month month Day Day and then 
>  the time stamp.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The good thing about the date format that is 
>  that is universal but much like with translating labels and 
>  translating the data when you're displaying something like dates 
>  when you're displaying something like currencies numbers and so 
>  on which we'll get into in a second.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Zap that your software and will need to know.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Which which proper local specific format what 
>  it in so remember during storage and an issue the verifiable 
>  credential only has one way to store the days which is the one 
>  dictated by the VC spec so if your software specifically a 
>  display time that I need to translate the dates the same thing 
>  applies to.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Other.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  User interface considerations such as.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Numbers.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Units currency as well as.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Things like plurals and formatting for example 
>  just again as a as a random illustration say your credential.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Has has the description or has the words the 
>  bearerof this credential has taken X number of credits.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  In a in the following major program right.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Your display logic either in your wallets 
>  offering verifier or in the template that you're setting up will 
>  need to have.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  To be able to handle plurals and in English 
>  there's two types of players right there's the one and the many 
>  but in other languages gets much more interesting like in Arabic 
>  there's three plurals 12 and many and all the way to way more 
>  exotic languages than that so.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  And.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  In mind when setting up your templates.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Why do I bring up the names and addresses.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So names part of it is the formatting.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Different countries have different 
>  requirements in terms of the formatting.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Now addresses are a nightmare we're going to 
>  get two addresses hopefully at some other point.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  In in RV CTU calls but the reason I bring it 
>  up again is to start the conversation with you and to do 
>  recommend to urge that unless you have very specific either legal 
>  requirements or like if you're doing a library system 
>  requirements for sorting.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Avoid assuming that your address has hit a 
>  particular schema so one thing that we often see is that one 
>  setting up the credential let's say for an issuer right you you 
>  want to specify which university issued this educational 
>  credential and where they're located.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   The.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The thing that you often encounter is that 
>  developers especially US based developers immediately start 
>  thinking in terms of the typical you ask address format so Street 
>  Unit state ZIP code country that sort of thing but of course 
>  somecountries don't have zip codes.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   The.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The world of address formatting is alive and 
>  complicated and there there are entire ISO specs that are 
>  gigantic with slab specs that deal with.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  How you localize an address for particular 
>  country if you need to machine process it and that's the 
>  important part.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  What an easy solution especially now in the 
>  early days and especially if your use case does not.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Name field.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Does not require you to sort it a process it 
>  in complex ways is.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  But last name and first name which is us and.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   Just have a single.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Say Britain Center.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Recognize the fact that different countries 
>  will have way.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Way different name requirements many more 
>  names many of them won't have middle names and so on so avoid the 
>  first middle and last trap just have a name field where the user 
>  can put in whatever they need to similarly with the addresses 
>  avoid the u.s. entered address schema even if Google recommends 
>  it in schema.org they fall prey to the same same problems as.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   The schema.org.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Developed by us developers and whenever 
>  possible just have a single address field.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Withaddresscan be type typed in as text us 
>  free form and then let localization software deal with it so at 
>  the data model level simple name field simple address.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Break.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Up into sub Fields unless you have very 
>  particular legal requirements for and we can get into specific 
>  examples and specific recommendations as a group later on once 
>  we've had this conversation so the purpose of this college is to 
>  bring up the issues to all of you.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So questions questions so far.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So I want to call out since we have Marcus 
>  here.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Marcus have you had to deal with in 
>  nationalization during your demo projects or what are your 
>  experiences with it as a software developer in the European 
>  Union.
> Markus Sabadello:  Yeah thanks for asking me I may have to 
>  disappoint you a little bit yes we have so we are doing quite a 
>  bit of work here in the EU experimenting with universities within 
>  this European blockchain service infrastructure which is a is a 
>  commissioned by the which is an initiative by the EU commission 
>  involving a lot of universities across different member states 
>  and you.
> Markus Sabadello:  .
> https://ec.europa.eu/cefdigital/wiki/display/CEFDIGITAL/EBSI
> Markus Sabadello:  And yes for example we've been working a 
>  little bit with University in Germany and also with universities 
>  in in Spain and trying to compare and interoperate a little bit 
>  between what we are doing in Austria and what others are doing in 
>  other EU countries unfortunately we haven't really been able to 
>  go very deep yet into into internationalisation topic so we we 
>  really haven't done.
> Markus Sabadello:   Done.
> Markus Sabadello:  Any of this yet trying to deal with multiple 
>  languages or date formats we've been really just getting started 
>  on the more technical base levels seeing if we can resolve each 
>  other states and verify each other's signatures and we've been 
>  going a little bit into into schema design Chase until the 
>  context design we've had a lot of interesting.
> Markus Sabadello:   Seeing challenges of.
> Markus Sabadello:  With.
> Markus Sabadello:  Different universities using different data 
>  models on for example how do you identify different types of 
>  diplomas or different types of degrees how do you distinguish 
>  between a bachelor's degree and a master's degree and PhD and 
>  different universities have different systems they are even 
>  within Australia for example within our small country if Aunt 
>  went to universities here are using good different.
> Markus Sabadello:   Data models and of course we have so we have 
>  a lot of these.
> Markus Sabadello:  Classical json-ld modeling questions but we 
>  haven't really gone into into this internationally 
>  internationalisation topic I expected this will become very 
>  important this year so the broader vision and perspective of the 
>  EU here is to to Really encourage and support cross-border use 
>  cases this year so.
> Markus Sabadello:  Last year was.
> Markus Sabadello:  2021 Was mostly about the individual member 
>  states individual EU countries trying out things within the 
>  country so there wasn't a lot of emphasis on the nationalization 
>  and cross-border use cases and that's why we have limited 
>  experience in that regard but it is going to be really a central 
>  aim of the EU commission to work on that this year as.
> Markus Sabadello:   As part of.
> Markus Sabadello:  Other strategies something that they call the 
>  you single digital market and connecting Europe facility so that 
>  a lot of there's a lot of interest now to to Really encourage 
>  cross-border projects of all kinds including collaboration 
>  between universities and then this year this will really become a 
>  strong Focus but so far I can't really give a lot of.
> Markus Sabadello:   Channel technical.
> Markus Sabadello:  I'm learning a lot from from you so this is 
>  this is very very interesting.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you so much Marcus yeah so it sounds 
>  like all of the all of us early implementers need to start 
>  thinking about this and I I strongly hope for we as the VC EDU 
>  task force come up with some recommendations.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  These are examples of studying languages 
>  directions this is how you localize rendered images and HTML 
>  templates or forget into.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Other markup formats for deterministic display 
>  but similarly this is what to watch out for with dates with 
>  plurals with currencies and units and also hopefully will 
>  maintain lists of.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Contexts and jurisdictions because so far 
>  we've just been talking about localization in the engineering 
>  term in the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  This has to do with language and formatting 
>  rules but as Marcus mentioned we certainly have a lot of work to 
>  do on the localized into the jurisdiction making sure that or at 
>  least not making sure that's that's not our job as the task force 
>  but at least make sure that the potential is there for degrees 
>  credentials and all the things that were working with can operate 
>  across state and Country lines.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Other questions.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  You may have a nice and neat and short 
>  discussion this week in that case.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  One thing that I'll mention as a as a preview 
>  of upcoming topics is that related to.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Nationalization localization are the issues of 
>  accessibility and sometimes you'll see the topics are grouped 
>  together because.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Accessibility considerations have a very 
>  similar.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Structure to internationalization localization 
>  which is you have to make sure that the data model supports it 
>  and then you have to make yourself smarter to actually translate 
>  or be accessible provide alternate ways of.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Doing displaying viewing the certificate.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So you'll see a similar pattern 
>  inaccessibility is there as what we touched on in localization 
>  meaning we're going to have to decide.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Weather too.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Add additional fields for example and again 
>  we'll get into this in a future topic of but something as simple 
>  as an image description.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah go ahead.
> Markus Sabadello:  This is our maybe you want to finish your your 
>  pointexplanation if not I had another question maybe for that 
>  group.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks yesso point was you see similar pattern 
>  will have to make sure that our data data model support 
>  accessibility and then we'll talk about some of the interaction 
>  time considerations I go ahead Marcus.
> Markus Sabadello:  Okay so my question that that we've been 
>  struggling a lot with here in our work is more about the data 
>  models and and the schemas and how to how to design those in a 
>  way that enables localization or that enables credentials to be 
>  interoperable across borders specifically we've been wondering a 
>  lot about the granularity of of contexts or at some point.
> Markus Sabadello:  The idea in our projects was that each EU 
>  member state would Define their own context where they would 
>  model their University diplomas and So within the Euro would be 
>  27 different json-ld context for each country but then people 
>  said okay this isn't going to be very easy then to be 
>  interoperable and it would be better to have one European 
>  Standard and Associated json-ld context but then sir.
> Markus Sabadello:  The people said that.
> Markus Sabadello:  Sexually.
> Markus Sabadello:  Different between each each University like I 
>  said even here in our relatively small country and our small 
>  project different universities have different data schemes so I 
>  wonder if there are any one has any idea or recommendations or 
>  best practices on how to do that if if you have different data 
>  models do you want like a top-down wondering to rule them all.
> Markus Sabadello:   All.
> <simone_> (Transcriber appears excited about this conversation 
>  too)  Lol
> Markus Sabadello:  Pro Traders a single context that just defines 
>  everything and everybody has to deal with that or could there be 
>  a layered approach maybe where some high-level Concepts I could 
>  be defined by by top layer by some kind of governance body and 
>  then individual countries and individual member states could 
>  override that or add a details.
> Markus Sabadello:   To that.
> Markus Sabadello:  That's.
> Markus Sabadello:  That's been interesting for us to to think 
>  about.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks really great question.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Let's put it to the group.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you so much Nate.
> <taylor> Thank you for the edits Kerri :)
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky): Sure I was going to bring up the 
>  possibility for using language maps in defining a particular term 
>  in the context to have a container type of language for a 
>  slightly more abbreviated display when the issuer wants to award 
>  a credential that has multiple different language values in it 
>  the language Maps do convert through json-ld processing to be 
>  equivalent to the array.
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky):  or Matt with.
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky): the value
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky): And language keys for each value that you 
>  showed I was wondering if you had any thoughts on whether kind of 
>  allowing both options provide or produces any challenges for 
>  consumers that makes their job more expensive versus if we 
>  recommended using one method or the other given that json-ld 
>  processing can translate pretty easily into the.
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky):  more extended.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Oh that's a great question and I didn't want 
>  to get into too many details in our initial presentation about 
>  the language Maps but you're absolutely right.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> <deb_everhart> wrt schemas for different types of credentials and 
>  achievements, I would recommend starting with CTDL and adapting 
>  it as needed for specific locales or types of credentials
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Of the verifiable credential serialization 
>  data model has some really neat optimizations or shortcuts where 
>  if you have an array of translated properties for a field but 
>  let's say you have three different descriptions in three 
>  different languages use the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The technique Nate istalking about is.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  There's a way to specify in the context that 
>  this is always going to be a localized property so you might as 
>  well presented in this way in a dictionary that's helpful for 
>  developers so they can instead of searching through an array.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  To give language they can just Index right 
>  into it so yeah that's a that's a great question should we as the 
>  group recommend one particular way or wait and see what the 
>  implementers are doing and with feedback great question no no 
>  idea.
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky): Yes and just to add one more wrinkle to 
>  it if we were working in a world of kind of pure json-ld 
>  processing that would be one matter you can always convert 
>  between these different formats with some amount of ease but if 
>  we add something like a Json schema for a particular credential 
>  type to the mix then are we even going to be able to author a 
>  schema that expresses all of the different possible options for.
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky):  how language might be.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Oh that's a.
> Nate_Otto_(Badgr/CSky): Referenced within the credential we're 
>  going to have to see what actually.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  That's a fantastic Point how does this 
>  interact with Jason schemas that's definitely a great topic for a 
>  future call or for a we could open an issue on the VC to you 
>  GitHub specifically given the verifiable credential.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Internationalization recommendations 
>  specifying the language how does that interact with Jason schemas 
>  and actually that's not that's not something that just us in vcd 
>  you have to have to struggle with the fabric Winchell working 
>  group the newly chartered 2.0 working group will will need to 
>  provide these these examples because there's a lot of fans of 
>  Json schema in the in the verifiable credential working group so.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:   So we should absolutely.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Bring up this very question of great if I have 
>  to set up a schema how do I make sure that it's flexible enough 
>  that.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  For internationalization it supports both of 
>  these language formats the language container or the the IRA 
>  format so thank you for bringing that up let's let's make sure to 
>  track it at working group on the task force level.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Phil.
> Deb Everhart: https://credreg.net/ctdl/handbook
> Phil Long: https://credreg.com/page/typeslist
> <deb_everhart> thanks Phil
> Kerri Lemoie:  Hey Dmitri are you still here with us.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I'm so sorry I by accident hit the mute the 
>  hardware mute on my headset thank you for checking okay so unless 
>  there's other questions comments you can see it we had work ahead 
>  of us.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Hopefully a glad.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Okay Kayode go ahead.
> Kayode Ezike:  I'm sorry.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yep we can here you go ahead.
> Kayode Ezike:  Hello so I think I'm going to answer this question 
>  in my own protective but my question is related to basically the 
>  fact that you were explaining how the language is specified in 
>  the context field and my question is kind of like from a verifier 
>  standpoint like how is it flat if a verifier kind of is 
>  implemented with the expectation that a certain language.
> Kayode Ezike:  Rather that.
> Kayode Ezike:  The same language but it finds that actually is is 
>  not that language is actually not included in the context would 
>  that since is not part of the spec for for say for that to be 
>  verified I guess that would not necessarily be a verification 
>  failure it was expecting more to be a responsibility of the 
>  application to flag that and just kind of wanted to know your 
>  thoughts on how that kind of workload would work where a verifier 
>  is us-centric.
> Kayode Ezike:   To a particular language but it receives a 
>  credential that.
> Kayode Ezike:  Live does not include that language in context.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Great question yeah how does it interact with 
>  verification.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  So couple of thoughtsright off the bat and 
>  this is again this is going to be a great topic for a future call 
>  let's refresh our memory in about all of the.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  .
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  All the considerations about verifying the 
>  simple ones verifying that the Integrity of the credential the 
>  digital signatures fine that's tough the easy part but all of the 
>  more interesting exploration revocation if the credentials using 
>  an issue of registry has it been edited registered and all that 
>  stuff and now Kayode brings up another excellent point is how 
>  does verification interact with.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Internationalization with with translated in 
>  different languages so.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Got the at the very base line level of digital 
>  signature checking out it internationalization doesn't affect 
>  verification at all it's still just a string it's still just a 
>  Json object that is digitally signed so the signature will check 
>  out but you're absolutely right that we may run into interesting 
>  edge cases where the verifier software or more likely whatever 
>  software is.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thing the verifier back end so wallet or 
>  whatever other business logic application will need to make sure 
>  will need to enforce.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  The languages and so on so quick question I 
>  think.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  I think nobody's gotten as far as de stumble 
>  up against it but it's definitely something we'll need to keep an 
>  eye on.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks Kayode.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right anyone else.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Great thank you so much everyone have a couple 
>  minutes before your next call and see you next week.
> <sharon_leu> Thanks!
> <chris_kelly_(dif)> thanks all!
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks to my G.
> <markus_sabadello> Thanks
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Arie and if if I could ask you to stay on for 
>  a couple more minutes just to.
> <taylor> Thank you Dmitri et al 🙏
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Walk me through.
> Dmitri Zagidulin:  Downloading the the recording.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Yes I will walk you through some Med I'm can you.
> Kerri Lemoie:  Turn off the sound of the describer now it's in 
>  the same.
> 
>