- From: David Singer <singer@apple.com>
- Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:44:34 -0800
- To: Sid Stamm <sid@mozilla.com>
- Cc: JC Cannon <jccannon@microsoft.com>, "public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org)" <public-tracking@w3.org>
Also, I forgot to say (echoing others), that a MUST needs to be testable and 'MUST reflect the user's deepest wishes and desires' is pretty tricky to test. :-) On Jan 19, 2012, at 13:31 , Sid Stamm wrote: > Me too. > > Users may choose one UA over another because it makes the right decisions *for* them... then the UAs will cater to their set of users based on how those users want to interact with the UA and the web. > > It's a good idea to spec out how the UA communicates with web servers, and makes sense to provide non-normative guidance or examples about implementation techniques, but not normative language dictating how user agents help users make choices. > > -Sid > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "JC Cannon" <jccannon@microsoft.com> >> To: "David Singer" <singer@apple.com>, "public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org)" <public-tracking@w3.org> >> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 1:17:33 PM >> Subject: RE: ACTION-43: added user-agent-managed site-specific exception proposal to Editor's Draft >> >> I wholeheartedly agree with David on this point. >> >> JC >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Singer [mailto:singer@apple.com] >> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 9:29 AM >> To: public-tracking@w3.org (public-tracking@w3.org) >> Subject: Re: ACTION-43: added user-agent-managed site-specific >> exception proposal to Editor's Draft >> >> Right. As I am sure you know, I am all for user-control and user >> self-determination. >> >> But there is an important avenue that users have to exercise that >> control, and that is in their choice of user-agent, and their choice >> of its configuration. >> >> They re at liberty to say "I use browser X even though it doesn't >> support DNT because of Y", and they are liberty to say "I prefer >> browser M over browser N, because N is constantly asking me to make >> DNT choices in real-time, whereas M I can configure so it just gets >> it right". >> >> I think it a *huge* mistake for us to design the way the user makes >> choices. Be clear in the text that certain aspects of 'driving' the >> protocol belong to the user, but don't tell browsers what to do to >> make sure that that is the case. " MUST provide a user interface >> prompting the user to choose" is not a good phrase. >> >> On Jan 18, 2012, at 23:45 , Rigo Wenning wrote: >> >>> David, >>> >>> we are approaching the "normal" catch22 situation of the data self >>> determination concept that is secretly underlying all our >>> discussions IMHO. >>> >>> On Wednesday 18 January 2012 16:37:25 David Singer wrote: >>>> I think we're designing a protocol between the UA and the server, >>>> and what >>>> that protocol means and its requirements. UA to user interactions >>>> are out >>>> of the scope of a MUST statement, I think. >>> >>> And if you want to have (some) user-control and self-determination, >>> we assume >>> that at some point the user should be enabled to make a (albeit >>> possibly >>> automated) decision. And the protocol, at some point, needs to >>> trigger that >>> decision process. I do not believe we can avoid that without going >>> square to >>> the entire concept of privacy (because privacy is finally about >>> autonomy). >>> >>> This said, a specification should only said that there MUST be a >>> user decision >>> and not how that user decision is implemented. Note that P3P >>> implementation on >>> UAs failed mainly because of lacking guidance and complete >>> misunderstanding by >>> implementers. Coming out of a 4 year research project where we >>> investigated >>> some of this, I could imagine that it may be worthwhile to have >>> some good >>> practices documentation where we join forces to unearth good >>> privacy >>> interfacing guidelines. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Rigo >>> >> >> David Singer >> Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc. >> >> >> >> >> >> David Singer Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
Received on Thursday, 19 January 2012 21:45:05 UTC