- From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
- Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 09:32:45 +1100
- To: www-svg@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
06 Dec 2012
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0051.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Erik, Cameron, Doug, Dirk, Tav, Rik, Nikos, Brian
Regrets
Chair
Erik
Scribe
Cameron
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Sydney F2F
2. [6]marker-pattern
3. [7]arc join naming
4. [8]back to marker-pattern
5. [9]fill/stroke url()s
6. [10]SVG 2
7. [11]SVG 2 - suggestion for a new path command to close
a subpath smoothly
* [12]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 06 December 2012
<birtles> Zakim: IPcaller is me
<cabanier> * zakim is weird today*
<jarek> how do you join the teleconference?
<jarek> is it for w3c members only?
jarek: yes it is for working group members
Zakim: [ is me
Zakime, [IPcaller] is me
<scribe> Scribe: Cameron
<scribe> ScribeNick: heycam
Sydney F2F
heycam: just brought this up last week to verify that we
wouldn't change dates
<ed> [13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2013
(needs details filled in)
[13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Sydney_2013
ed: we have a wiki page
heycam: I think we still need a registration form though
<jarek> shepazu: no, I'm just interested in following the
latest news on SVG 2
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to set up a registration form for
Sydney F2F 2013 [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3401 - Set up a registration form for
Sydney F2F 2013 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-13].
heycam: F2F is February 4 - 8, with half a day on Wednesday
krit: we should get the Tokyo dates fixed
... the chairs should coordinate with CSS
heycam: ok
birtles: I will talk to John who is hosting CSS
<birtles> also, for your planning, test the Web forward will
likely be the week of 11 Feb
<birtles> Australia Day is 26 Jan so you might want to come
early :)
[15]http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-2013
[15] http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-2013
June 5 - 7
birtles: should we be only haing 2 days of SVG in that week? is
that enough?
heycam: I'm happy to extend it backwards to start on the Sunday
if people wanted to do that
birtles: or Saturday, and skip Sunday
... I'll talk to John and put forward a couple of suggestions
marker-pattern
ed: did we have anything more to discuss beyond last week's
discussion?
heycam: not sure there was any progress
<krit>
[16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Nov/0072.ht
ml
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Nov/0072.html
krit: I sent an email, no response yet
<krit> [<distance> <url>]+
krit: I just want to make sure we have this basic syntax
... we might have other keywords around it, but hopefully the
core of the syntax doesn't get more complicated than that
<krit> [<distance> <url>]+ [/ <marker-free-region>]? || [repeat
| no-repeat]?
krit: to address heycam's offset issue, I have this syntax
... after the repeating distance/urls, you can have lengths
from the left and right side where markers don't paint
... as well as the <marker-free-region>, do you have the
initial length value to give the offset as in
stroke-dashoffset?
<krit> <marker-free-region> = [ <distance> | auto ]{1,2}
krit: no, I think that syntax with the first length is hard to
read
... that <marker-free-region> syntax is the same as
background-size
heycam: what does auto mean?
krit: we could leave that off, it would just mean 0
... I think we should just keep one of the two offset
interpretations, not both
... either the one that is like stroke-dashoffset, or the
marker free regions
Tav: I think there are cases where you want to align the
markers with the dashes
… you can think of borders on maps
… where you have dashes and you want the marker to be in the
middle of the dash
heycam: and because you might use stroke-dashoffset on that,
you would want it for the marker pattern too?
Tav: yes
heycam: I wonder if it makes sense to have a single offset,
instead of per track
krit: I don't think that makes sense
Tav: this might get complicated too when we have adjusted
strokes
krit: we could also have a separate marker-pattern-offset
property
… a list of lengths
… I don't think putting everything into the marker shorthand is
a good idea
heycam: I like having the marker-pattern-offset different from
marker-pattern, so it can be animated
krit: this would be hard to animate with SMIL, but with CSS
animation it would work
birtles: you can just define to SMIL to animate this
… how is this different from animate?
krit: it's a special case
birtles: we just define a new data type and how SMIL animates
it
… I don't think it's SMIL that needs redefining, we just define
how the data type animates
… as we define new data types we should define how they get
animated
… CSS animations defines a bunch of base data types that are
common
… but for example with CSS Transforms, it defines some new data
types, and how they get animated
<krit>
[17]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-background
[17] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-background
arc join naming
Tav: I sent an email with a list of possibilities
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDe
c/0053.html
[18]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0053.html
Tav: the top four are arcs, claw, extrapolate, talon
nikos: extrapolate was the original one that was suggested
… what was wrong with it?
Tav: it's a bit long
heycam: I think there could be multiple ways of extrapolating,
so I am not sure it describes it well
nikos: if you have to straights lines that converge, they will
continue on?
Tav: it will fall back to miter
shepazu: there must be an existing graphics term for this
[19]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworking_joints
[19] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodworking_joints
ed: we can discuss a bit more. but I agree it should fit in
well with the existing types.
heycam: I think arcs is the most uncontroversial to me
… least out there
Tav: note that it is two arcs, hence "arcs" not "arc"
birtles: I like claw because it makes sense straight or curved
back to marker-pattern
heycam: I just wanted to know whether this pattern of parallel
of properties is something the CSS WG likes, or whether we
should avoid
krit: the shorthand can be confusing
… but I don't think the CSS WG is against this way of
specifying short hands
birtles: if you have these two paralllel lists, and the lengths
are different, you have to define what happens. and as the
author you need to match them up.
heycam: right that's my concern, whether this way of specifying
multiple properties with lists that match up is good or bad
... otoh I like being able to animate the individual parts of
it, and not the whole shorthand
… it makes me wonder then whether the marker-pattern parts
should be separated out into different properties too
heycam: just wondering if it makes sense to separate out the
marker-free-region into a separate property
... just wonder whether it makes sense to break marker-pattern
up further
Zakim: [IPcaller] is me
krit: I'm concerned that the marker shorthand will become
extremely complicated if we can specify marker-mid etc. and
marker-pattern in the one property
heycam: what about repeating a marker pattern over segments
instead of the whole path?
krit: I think it would be fine to leave as a single marker on
segments
heycam: how do you specify that in your proposal?
krit: marker-segment
heycam: ok, back to a separate property
krit: but Tab is not in favour of marker-segment and
marker-pattern being separate
... would you want marker-segment as part of the marker
shorthand?
heycam: I thought that it would be good to have the "blah"
shorthand reset all "blah-*" properties
<krit>
[20]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html
[20] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html
… are there existing cases where this doesn't happen?
krit: in CSS Masking, there is the mask property and
mask-box-image, which are both shorthands
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to reply to Dirk's recent
marker-pattern proposal [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3402 - Reply to Dirk's recent
marker-pattern proposal [on Cameron McCormack - due
2012-12-13].
fill/stroke url()s
krit: can we discuss this in the FX call?
… same for mask-type
SVG 2
krit: I don't think we've edited so much since the last WD
… I'd like to fix a bunch of things first before publishing a
new WD
… maybe at the end of the Feb F2F meeting?
heycam: ok, that's fine
<nikos>
[22]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#item03
[22] http://www.w3.org/2012/10/25-svg-minutes.html#item03
… the publishing moratorium is coming up soon anyway, so it'll
be hard to publish by this year
SVG 2 - suggestion for a new path command to close a subpath smoothly
heycam: I just skimmed the thread, but I think the idea seems
OK to me
cabanier: I think it introduces a lot of details that need to
be worked out
… it's more than just back flipping the initial control points
and using them
… especially for arcs
… if you define it to close smoothly, and the previous point is
an arc, how do you connect it?
… everyone does arcs to beziers differently
heycam: I think we can get around this by just inferring the
final point of a user specified segment
shepazu: I'm not sure he was that fussed about how to specify
it
… but just something that says "let's smoothly close this path"
and it might not even be a new command
… it might be if you leave off the last value in something that
should have a number of values, and you have a z, it smoothly
interpolates to the first point
… it's backwards compatible because not syntax uses that
currently
Tav: why do you even need the "z" then?
shepazu: I think including the "z" makes it clearer
heycam: I think we should have an explicit indication that we
are going back to the origin
shepazu: we could use an "x" command
… we don't need to add a new command for a smooth path end
segment
krit: we also need to specify the rendering behaviour
shepazu: it is just the same as if you explicitly specify the
final point, but you leave it out
heycam: and you don't get marker-start/end
shepazu: I think heycam and I are on the same page but thinking
of something different from Olaf's suggestion
krit: I'd like to see examples
shepazu: I think it's already defined though
Tav: there are two issues: one is a smooth join, and one is a
join without the extra little piece with the z
krit: isn't this something authoring tools should provide?
shepazu: an authoring tool can provide any number of things.
but this has a number of use cases, any time you're hand
authoring
… if you're making a generator, and you just want it to close
with the original point, this prevents you from having to keep
track of where the original point was
shepazu: putting aside Olaf's proposal, this is what Cameron
and I was thinking of
… if you leave off the final point of a command and follow it
by the "x" (or a "z", or however we decide that syntax to be)
… you substitute in the origin point
… let's assume there's always a z at the end
… if you had the z in the path, you already need to track the
start of the path
… so this doesn't add any additional complexity to processing
the path
… it is a bit like error recovery, you have set behaviour for
when you have exactly one too few points in your command, and
you also end that subpath with a z
krit: let's assume the last segment was a cubic curve
… you need to to define the control points
heycam: I think this allows you to have a closed path, where
the final segment is not a straight line segment
… and to not have markers painted because of that straight line
segment
shepazu: let's follow up with Dr Olaf, ask him to provide some
visual examples of where this would be useful
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to reply to Dr Olaf's thread to ask for
clarification on the proposal, whether the "x" or whatever
closing idea might solve it [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3403 - Reply to Dr Olaf's thread to
ask for clarification on the proposal, whether the "x" or
whatever closing idea might solve it [on Doug Schepers - due
2012-12-13].
RRSAgent: pointer?
[24]http://www.w3.org/2012/11/29-svg-irc
[24] http://www.w3.org/2012/11/29-svg-irc
<ed> ok, telcons Dec 27, and Jan 3 (2013) are cancelled
RRSAgent: make minutes
RRSAgent: make minutes
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to reply to Dirk's recent marker-pattern
proposal [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to set up a registration form for Sydney
F2F 2013 [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to reply to Dr Olaf's thread to ask for
clarification on the proposal, whether the "x" or whatever
closing idea might solve it [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
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1.137 ([29]CVS log)
$Date: 2012-12-06 22:31:13 $
__________________________________________________________
[28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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[30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/Sydeny/Sydney/
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Found Scribe: Cameron
Found ScribeNick: heycam
Default Present: Doug_Schepers, cabanier, birtles, ed, +1.415.832.aaaa,
krit, heycam, +61.2.980.5.aabb, nikos, +33.9.53.77.aacc, Tav, +1.415.832
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Present: Erik Cameron Doug Dirk Tav Rik Nikos Brian
Agenda: [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec
/0051.html
Found Date: 06 Dec 2012
Guessing minutes URL: [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: cameron doug
[31]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012OctDec/0051.html
[32] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/06-svg-minutes.html
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[33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Thursday, 6 December 2012 22:33:26 UTC