Re: [ENT] Review comments on the SPARQL 1.1. Entailment regime document

+1

Ivan
On May 18, 2010, at 13:20 , Birte Glimm wrote:

> That was my understanding too, i.e., we can also just have an
> informative section (as RIF) that explains that by using only strongly
> safe core rules, you get a nice guarantee for finiteness.
> Birte
> 
> On 18 May 2010 09:44, Axel Polleres <axel.polleres@deri.org> wrote:
>>>>> Ok, I'll leave that one as is until there is further input
>>>> 
>>>> I leave that to Axel and Sandro
>>> 
>>> Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to follow this for a while.  How
>>> urgent is this?  Things for me relax a little in two weeks, I think.
>>> 
>>> Offhand, I'm unpleasantly surprised that anyone would want to name a
>>> subset of Core.  Subsetting Core is bad for interoperability.  But maybe
>>> there are issues I'm missing.
>> 
>> If we don't require finiteness any longer, am not sure whether we need an own URI for strongly safe.
>> We may just want to mention in the text that for strongly safe rulesets consequences will
>> always be finite without the need for a separate entailment regime.
>> 
>> Axel
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 18 May 2010, at 04:54, Sandro Hawke wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>>> Hey Chime,
>>>> 
>>>> Quick reply. Unfortunately, I cannot be on the call; I am on my way to =
>>>> Sweden...
>>>> 
>>>> On May 17, 2010, at 21:20 , Chimezie Ogbuji wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for the review Ivan, see responses below for those comments =
>>>> referring
>>>>> to my sections.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> On 5/12/10 11:04 AM, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>> Section 7
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> At the moment, the http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/ vocabulary does =
>>>> _not_
>>>>>> include the
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RIF-RDF-Strongly-Safe-Core
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> but only
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RIF
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> It is easy for me to add this additional URI, but I have to be sure =
>>>> this is
>>>>>> o.k. with the RIF group, and whether it is the correct name. And, if =
>>>> I add
>>>>>> this, shouldn't I add others? Which ones? Axel, Sandro, can you help =
>>>> on that?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Ok, I'll leave that one as is until there is further input
>>>> 
>>>> I leave that to Axel and Sandro
>>> 
>>> Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to follow this for a while.  How
>>> urgent is this?  Things for me relax a little in two weeks, I think.
>>> 
>>> Offhand, I'm unpleasantly surprised that anyone would want to name a
>>> subset of Core.  Subsetting Core is bad for interoperability.  But maybe
>>> there are issues I'm missing.
>>> 
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>> Section 7.1
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> I think we have a pending issue as for which namespace rif:imports is =
>>>> in. The
>>>>>> current text does not specifies this at all. There should be a =
>>>> namespace
>>>>>> document, too.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I have explicitly designated the following namespace URI:
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>            http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RDF-RIF-imports
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I'm not sure who is responsible for setting up the namespace document, =
>>>> but
>>>>> text from this section should be sufficient for the body of such a =
>>>> document.
>>>> 
>>>> I am the one maintaining these and Sandro can also do it. That being =
>>>> said, I am not sure that is the right place to do this. The =
>>>> .../entailment/XXX URI-s are used designate specific entailment regimes, =
>>>> and this is something different.
>>>> 
>>>> Ideally, this predicate should be in the rif namespace, but that would =
>>>> require, I presume, an agreement from the RIF group (that again falls =
>>>> into the domain of Sandro and Axel, I am afraid). We may have to mint a =
>>>> URI of its own, which looks a bit silly....
>>> 
>>> I don't see the rif namespace as a problem, if that's where it makes
>>> sense to put it (whatever it is).  Either the RIF WG is okay with the
>>> design, in which case it grants permission, or it isn't okay with the
>>> design, in which case there are much bigger problems than the namespace.
>>> Of course, the rif namespace is an XML namespace, not (yet) and RDF
>>> namespace, but I'm hoping to make it both with the RIF-in-RDF encoding.
>>> 
>>>    -- Sandro
>>> 
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>> Section 7.1
>>>>>> In other words, I cannot dynamically assign rule sets to the dataset. =
>>>> For a
>>>>>> user this looks like a serious restriction because that means that =
>>>> the dataset
>>>>>> provider dictates the rule sets it has, rather than the user.
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Isn't it possible to say that the rdf:imports can also be part of the =
>>>> BGP and
>>>>>> has, well, the same semantics of referring to a rule set?
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> Actually, the same question applies to various OWL regimes, too. Can =
>>>> I have a
>>>>>> [] owl:imports <...> in my BGP? Should we allow this?
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Per the thread with you and Birte on this, I have not done anything =
>>>> since a
>>>>> more fundamental change to the SPARQL syntax would be needed to =
>>>> facilitate
>>>>> query-time specification of a ruleset to use (and this was ruled out =
>>>> early).
>>>> 
>>>> Well... indeed, Birte convinced me that the current setup is actually =
>>>> fine, and an import can be done via an extra graph that uses the import. =
>>>> That being said, I do not understand your last remark: with the =
>>>> semantics of rif:import one _can_ specify the rule set dynamically at =
>>>> query time (provided the endpoint is capable of reading an RDF file at =
>>>> an external URI). And that is the right thing to have!
>>>> 
>>>> [snip]
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> -----------
>>>>>> I wonder whether it would be good adding some additional (informal) =
>>>> text in
>>>>>> the RIF related text that makes it clear that, although we define the
>>>>>> entailment regime only in terms of the RIF-Simple, it is possible to =
>>>> define
>>>>>> RIF Core rule sets that describe RDFS and even OWL-RL. Ie, with =
>>>> suitable rule
>>>>>> sets, this entailment is much more powerful than it looks at first. A
>>>>>> reference to
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-rif-owl-rl-20100511/
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>> and to ter Horst's paper (which, actually, still appears in the =
>>>> reference
>>>>>> list) would be useful.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> I've added a new section: 7.2 Custom Rulesets for Common Vocabulary
>>>>> Interpretations (Informative) that discusses this.
>>>> 
>>>> Yep! Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> Ivan
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> =20
>>>>> -- Chime
>>>>> =20
>>>>> =20
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----
>>>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>>>> mobile: +31-641044153
>>>> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> --Apple-Mail-20--508810017--
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Birte Glimm, Room 306
> Computing Laboratory
> Parks Road
> Oxford
> OX1 3QD
> United Kingdom
> +44 (0)1865 283529


----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
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