Re: Element names in prov-xml

Hi Luc,

I wasn't advocating changing it. Sorry if it left that impression.

I was advocating that we make sure the convention is clear and that we make
sure the distinction is emphasised in the primer.

This is clearly something that can happen even to people well versed in XML
and RDF.

Thanks
Paul




On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>wrote:

>  Hi Paul, Stephan,
>
> We have to be careful about jumping to conclusions just on the basis of
> this example
> <prov:entity/>
>
> If we are to capitalize xml element <prov:Entity prov:id="bob"/>, then
> what becomes
> of the type ... prov:Entity (defined in the xml schema).
>
> And then what happens to <prov:wasGeneratedBy ... />?
> We decide not capitalize it because rdf/xml does not capitalize it?
>
> This would result in an inconsistent set of conventions for the XML
> serialization.
>
> We have seen that capitalizations differ across documents, because of
> different conventions
> in different communities. We also know that the primer, by illustrating
> all serializations, will
> expose these differences.
>
> I think that the current capitalization in prov-xml is logical for an xml
> serialization.  The primer
> needs to make it clear that this is not rdf/xml.
>
>
> Luc
>
>
> On 12/13/2012 09:49 AM, Paul Groth wrote:
>
> Yes, I mean just state the convention that we choose and why we choose
> it.
>
>  In the Primer, we use Turtle and PROV-XML.  The problem is that you see
> something like
>
>  :bob a prov:Entity.
>
>  <prov:entity prov:id=":bob"/>
>
>  and I can see how it's weird that we define in the same namespace both a
> lower and uppercase
>
>  Paul
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Stephan Zednik <zednis@rpi.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Dec 13, 2012, at 1:57 AM, Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi Stephan,
>>
>>  I think this is a fine rationale but I also think it needs maybe a
>> couple sentences of justification.
>>
>>
>>  ?  Do you mean add this rationale to the note?
>>
>>
>>  Also, for the primer, we should think about whether we want to show
>> each serialisation in parallel as this may cause unwanted comparison.
>>
>>
>>  I agree that can be an issue with both a RDF/XML and non-RDF XML
>> serialization.  Especially since they have the same namespace (!).  Perhaps
>> we should just use a TriG serialization for PROV-O in the primer?  That
>> ducks the issue about there being 2 XML serializations, which is something
>> we should probably directly address.
>>
>>  --Stephan
>>
>>
>>  regards
>> Paul
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Stephan Zednik <zednis@rpi.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>  PROV-XML is not an RDF/XML serialization and I believe it would be a
>>> mistake to create the expectation that it conforms to RDF/XML conventions.
>>>  Doing so could introduce incorrect assumptions on how PROV-XML maps
>>> against PROV-O.  PROV-XML was intended as a non-RDF encoding of PROV.  For
>>> a RDF/XML serialization of PROV use PROV-O.
>>>
>>>  I believe we went with camelCase in element names because it conformed
>>> with PROV-N conventions.  We used PascalCase in complexType names to
>>> differentiate element and complex type names.  In the schema the
>>> complexType for entity has name "prov:Entity" and the element you use to
>>> reference a prov:Entity from the document root has name "prov:entity".
>>>
>>>  --Stephan
>>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>>  *Resent-From:* <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
>>> *From:* Egon Willighagen <egon.willighagen@gmail.com>
>>> *Date:* December 12, 2012, 22:56:42 GMT+01:00
>>> *To:* "Groth, P.T." <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
>>> *Cc:* Provenance Working Group <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
>>> *Subject:* *Re: Element names in prov-xml*
>>>
>>>    On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been having a chat with Egon Willighagen in twitter about the
>>> element name case in prov-xml. You can see excerpts below. The key question
>>> is why element names are lower case e.g <prov:entity ...> and not upper
>>> case. This does not correspond to the convention in rdf/xml plus it looks a
>>> bit weird when sitting next to the turtle.
>>>
>>>
>>> The relevant section in the 2004 RDF/XML spec is 2.13 which describes
>>> the behavior:
>>>
>>> "It is common for RDF graphs to have rdf:type predicates from subject
>>> nodes. These are conventionally called typed nodes in the graph, or
>>> typed node elements in the RDF/XML. RDF/XML allows this triple to be
>>> expressed more concisely. by replacing the rdf:Description node
>>> element name with the namespaced-element corresponding to the RDF URI
>>> reference of the value of the type relationship."
>>>
>>> You can test it with this XML snippet
>>>
>>> <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"
>>>  xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
>>>  xmlns:prov="http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#">
>>>  <prov:entity rdf:about="ex:article">
>>> <dc:title>Crime rises in cities</dc:title>
>>>  </prov:entity>
>>> </rdf:RDF>
>>>
>>> here -> http://www.rdfabout.com/demo/validator/
>>>
>>> If you 'validate' it, it will also create other formats, showing that
>>> the above RDF/XML has a rdf:type prov:entity ... that confirms that
>>> convention.
>>>
>>> Section 2.13 is not
>>>
>>> Do we have a good explanation for this?
>>>
>>>
>>> Also note that my RDF/XML snippet uses rdf:about rather than prov:id
>>> ... I have to check whether rdf:ID or rdf:about is more appropriate,
>>> but that would be closer to RDF/XML too than prov:id ... but that's a
>>> separate thing you may want to look at.
>>>
>>> Egon
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr E.L. Willighagen
>>> Postdoctoral Researcher
>>> Department of Bioinformatics - BiGCaT
>>> Maastricht University (http://www.bigcat.unimaas.nl/)
>>> Homepage: http://egonw.github.com/
>>> LinkedIn: http://se.linkedin.com/in/egonw
>>> Blog: http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/
>>> PubList: http://www.citeulike.org/user/egonw/tag/papers
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> --
>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>> Assistant Professor
>> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>>   Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
>> - The Network Institute
>> VU University Amsterdam
>>
>>
>
>
>  --
> --
> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
> Assistant Professor
> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>   Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
> - The Network Institute
> VU University Amsterdam
>
>
> --
> Professor Luc Moreau
> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>
>