[Minutes] MLW-LT f2f

Hi all,

sorry for the delay. More or less cleaned up f2f minutes are now at


and below as text.




       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                                MLW-LT f2f

07 May 2013



    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-irc


           Karl, arle, dF, dave, felix, jirka, karl, mauricio,
           milan, pablo, tadej, yves, ankit(IRC), robin(for HTML
           "translate" topic


           Arle, pnietoca, felix


      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]agenda review
          2. [6]going through issues
          3. [7]XLIFF mapping
          4. [8]"translate" definition
          5. [9]ITS 2.0 Enriched Terminology Annotation Showcase
      * [10]Summary of Action Items

agenda review

    <fsasaki> looking at


going through issues

    <fsasaki> summary issue 74 - 89


    <fsasaki> summary issue 106 - 123


    <tadej> ACTION: felix to review draft for XLIFF mapping
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-504 - Review draft for XLIFF mapping
    [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-14].

    <tadej_> ACTION: dF to correct XLIFF mapping (change prefix its
    to itsx for certain attributes) [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-505 - Correct XLIFF mapping (change
    prefix its to itsx for certain attributes) [on David Filip -
    due 2013-05-14].

    <tadej_> ACTION: Felix to set up the URI placeholder for
    ITS2-XLIFF mapping ([16]http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff)
    [recorded in

      [16] http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff)

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-506 - Set up the URI placeholder for
    ITS2-XLIFF mapping ([18]http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff) on
    Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-14].

      [18] http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff)

    <Arle> ACTION: Dave to look at the XLIFF 2.0 change tracking
    module for provenance [recorded in

    <trackbot> Error finding 'Dave'. You can review and register
    nicknames at


    <Arle> ACTION: dlewis6 to look at the XLIFF 2.0 change tracking
    module for provenance [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-507 - Look at the XLIFF 2.0 change
    tracking module for provenance [on David Lewis - due

    <Arle> ACTION: Yves to examine XLIFF resource data module with
    respect to external resouce. [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-508 - Examine XLIFF resource data
    module with respect to external resouce. [on Yves Savourel -
    due 2013-05-14].

    <Arle> ACTION: davidF to make notes on extraction/merging
    behavior for target pointer [recorded in

    <trackbot> Error finding 'davidF'. You can review and register
    nicknames at


    <Arle> ACTION: david to make notes on extraction/merging
    behavior for target pointer [recorded in

    <trackbot> 'david' is an ambiguous username. Please try a
    different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g.,
    dlewis6, dfilip).

    <Arle> ACTION: dfilip to make notes on extraction/merging
    behavior for target pointer [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-509 - Make notes on
    extraction/merging behavior for target pointer [on David Filip
    - due 2013-05-14].

    <Marcis> Hi All

    <Marcis> We are waiting for the GotoMeeting Organiser to arrive

    <Arle> scribe:Arle

XLIFF mapping

    Due to connectivity problems the following log is based on
    offline scribing, done by Arle
Topic: XLIFF
[Portion missed]
David: First public review of XLIFF 2.0 will be done 29.May. Those inter
ested in mapping need to comment now. There is a commenting facility on
the web. Felix provided the needed links.
... Table on XLIFF in the wiki has a 2.0 column
Felix: What version should we link to?
David: Public review contains links to the public review draft. That wou
ld be a good source for the link.
... We expect at least two public review drafts, a second one in June. B
ut we can review to public review draft 1. That's better than referencin
g an editorial draft.
... Felix, it should all be in the email you got. Also the first page of
  the spec contains the citation format.
... We've concentrated so far on XLIFF 1.2, but 2.0 solutions are marked
  in most cases. In many cases it is easier to map to 2.0.
... We tried to use the core vocabulary of XLIFF where possible, which l
eads to some inconsistent solutions when 1.2 can't handle something in I
TS 2.0.
... <mrk> is a generic marker in XLIFF, and we use it to map metadata. O
ne marker can carry more than one piece of metadata, e.g., a "translate"
  marker can also carry information about terminology
... Does anyone have a concern about that?
Dave: Is that best practice in all cases?
Felix: Can you show an example?
Dave: What happens when they change in a workflow, e.g., through resegme
David: We have <sm> and <em> for cases where you can't have well-formed
<mrk> in a segment.
Dave: So you don't preclude using nested <mrk>s if that's more appropria
David: It depends on what is in the original document. If the spans are
all the same in the source, you wouldn't usually want to split them, alt
hough you could without violating syntax.
Dave: I'm thinking of cases where you do text analytics after you have e
xtracted the text and need to insert your own.
Felix: This is what Marcis needs to know.
David: Use the exiting markers if possible, otherwise insert your own. W
e need some language to explain this.
... The table started mapping categories, but now we need explanation.
Dave: Example of "The City of London", where you might get two annotatio
ns on "City of London" but then realize one needs to be moved to "The Ci
ty of London"
David and Dave: Discussion about solutions
David: In 2.0 it's easy, but in 1.2 the solution is ugly.
Yves: There is no implementation of 2.0.
David: We're working on implementation statements now. When we are past
the review we will gather them.
Felix: Marcis has generated 1.2 markup, and that is what he needs to kno
Dave: We still need to look at localization quality rating for XLIFF. Ph
il needs that.
David: terminology markup shows where term="yes" has good XLIFF markup,
but term="no" needs a workaround.
Yves: We should either always use ITS markup or not at all. Otherwise wh
en you process with an ITS processor, it won't see the XLIFF-native mark
up and will only see the nos.
David: But that's the mapping.
Yves: It still doesn't work.
Felix: If the process sees termInfoRef without its:term="yes", it will n
ot validate properly.
David: The goal is not to make it processable by a generic ITS processor
. There are a lot of things we would need to do to make it process bette
Dave: But where you do implement ITS, you need to follow the spec.
Yves: You have a lot of attributes for terminology, and mapping some but
  not all doesn't make sense. You should use all ITS. In 2.0 extensions w
ould allow you to use entirely native ITS markup.
Dave: What is our preference? To use ITS wherever possible? Or use XLIFF
  equivalents when possible. SO we would have <mrk term="yes"> alongside
Yves: That duplicates information.
David: And creates the possibility for conflicting information.
Dave: There are XLIFF-only and ITS-only processors, plus processors that
  would know about the mapping.
Felix: Actually the third one is ITS-only since it would use global rule
David: We should catch places where ITS does not make sense ...
Yves: I've look at the example from Marcis and he generated an invalid X
ML file due to some linking [?]
[missed discussion about processing between Yves and David]
Felix: You could do a mapping of its: to itsx:
Felix: Someone on IRC please assign an action to David.
... Marcis is implementing to the end of the month. Terminology, languag
e, elements within text, and domain are what he needs to do.
... David asked if we could have a namespace on the W3C server. Do we st
ill need that?
Yves: Yes. We need the URI. (Prefix is unimportant.)
Felix: Could we agree on what the URI would look like?
... http:www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff/
... That would be the mapping URI with the prefix itsx
... Please assign me an action to do this.
David: Does Marcis need the 2.0 part as well?
Yves: He is doing 1.2 only.
David: There is an issue with needing more than one reference?
Yves: The issue is with the mapping. We don't have term-info locally in
... There was a problem that in some cases in XLIFF you can have informa
tion about the term without referring to anything, but you can't have th
at in mapping from XLIFF to ITS.
... We have the termInfo pointer globally, but you can point to extra in
formation about the term and put it locally in XLIFF, but the reverse is
  not possible since you cannot create a global rule.
David: if the original processor knows about global rules, the extractor
  can do the matching and knows it comes from a global rule, it handles t
he mapping.
Yves: But what happens if the markup comes from XLIFF not the original f
ile so there is no local markup to attach it to.
... For example, if you use Enrycher.
David: So you need to know about the source format to map it back.
... Maybe you do it if you can or you send an error message.
Yves: Without implementations we can't tell if it will work or not.
... Some cases we can't do anything.
... Solution is that we may need a termInfo attribute in ITS, but we dec
ided early on not to do this.
David: In the case of domain we discussed the need for local mechanisms
in ITS.
... I wouldn't be opposed, but we are in the last call.
Yves: Who does it and would we really need it? We don't know. If you sta
rt with an XLIFF file from an original document you want to mark the ter
ms up, but you probably don't want to inject them back in the original d
Felix: Tilde use case ends in May, so we don't want to make changes that
  may render it nonconformant.
Yves: Let's discuss these issues in best practice
David: The big things are ITS prefix, domain.
Dave: Let's put a complex example in domain to be more realistic.
David: I think domain is resolved.
... Same issue as for termInfo. If you introduce it in XLIFF, you need s
omewhere to put it globally when you get back.
Dave: On domain, for consistency, we have an attribute <domains> with an
  S. The domain should be comma-separated since there an be more than one
. It's not in the spec, but in the suite. Should we use domains for cons
Felix: Domains attribute contains a comma-separated list.
David: So you suggest itsx-domains?
Dave: Yes. For RDF mapping it is important too.
Felix: Let's discuss that tomorrow.
David: For elements within text, we suggest a separate unit in both case
David: For language information,  mtype="x-itsLang". We just need to rem
ove the question marks in the wiki.
Yves: How about making the mtype as generic and then use the data catego
ries you need? The only problem would be when you use term and things li
ke that.
David: mtype becomes "x-its" in this case. For XLIFF 2.0 it takes the sa
me mechanism (UPDATED IN WIKI)
David: Now for locale filter, it is basically more sophisticated version
  of translate, so it should be easy.
... You can use the same mechanism.
Yves: We haven't thought about this one. In XLIFF you can extract withou
t a target locale. So what do you do when you have some entries for some
  locales but not others.
... You may do things after extraction, but you need to know information
  about locales and preserve it after extraction. An XLIFF doc may have n
o targets. You don't want to reprocess it for every single locale.
... You might need information at the trans-unit level.
David: Can the processor work at the inline level?
Yves: That would certainly be possible.
... If we use an extension, you have to understand it to process the fil
Felix: Maybe Dave can create an example we can look at.
David: The mechanism will be the same in any case since it is an extensi
on, like translate. It would be on a unit. Does it make sense to have it
  at the segment level?
Yves: You don't extract segments, but units. You need at least one segme
nt (which can be a paragraph if no further segmentation is done).
Dave created examples in the wiki for locale filter.
[missed portion of a few minutes]
David: Ruby is gone
David: text analysis uses mtype="phrase".
Felix: Change this to use should instead of must since confidence may no
t be needed.
David: If you do use it, we need guidance on how.
Tadej: In the spec if uses a MUST, but it applies only when confidence i
nformation is used.
Yves: Does mtype="phrase" make sense here? Does it have a specific meani
ng? It may not be a phrase. What is the meaning of phrase?
David: There is no defined meaning.
Dave: There is some ISO meaning [?]
David: Even if you can't read the ITS portion, using phrase gives you a
notion that there is an idiomatic value, for the generic XLIFF processor
  that doesn't know ITS.
... Now on to provenance, which is Dave's.
Dave: We only support it in stand-off mode.
David: It works in 1.2, but for 2.0, maybe look at change tracking mecha
[OBSCURED because already added: Action: dlewis6 to look at the XLIFF 2.
0 change tracking module for provenance]
David: externalResource
Yves: should be externalResourceRef. I also found that <mrk> doesn't wor
k when implementing. Because you are not referring to an object, but rat
her the content in the object [?]
... But we have cases where you can't put the mrk inside where it needs
to go.
David: So here we should use something other than mrk?
Yves: Probably <ph>
David: What if the external resource is a TM, term database?
Yves: Those don't apply. It refers to video, images, etc., stuff from th
e original document.
David: We need to change mrk for generic inlines. In 2.0 we need to look
  at the resource data module.
... You have skeleton, original data, and resource data module. So you t
hink this is always just an inline?
Yves: For 1.2 it is clear.
David: Let's use inlines the inline level in 2.0. But use the skeleton f
or the structural level?
Yves: The skeleton doesn't make sense to me, but otherwise, the external
  module for reference is relevant. We need to look at it.
David: I'll look it.
Yves: I'm not OK with that, because it would force people to add support
  for a module for something pretty simple.
Felix: The category was suggested by Shaun and dealt with source content
  to show what belongs to the file and is source-content focused.
Yves: I think that is partially what Microsoft intended in their module.
... Someone need to look at it anyway.
Felix: What is the timeline?
Yves: Don't know.
Dave: So what are we using for 1.2?
David: generic inline markup. Same for 2.0, but a different set.
[OBSCURED because already added: Action: Yves to examine XLIFF resource
data module with respect to external resouce.]
David: for id value inline, we are not addressing this use case. (Explai
n that NA is after deliberation.)
Yves: To do it we would need an extension.
David: Would require unique IDs within the doc. But I think we can drop
it for now and revisit if needed.

    David: Ma-rcis asked why we have both its- and itsx-

    Felix: Can you clarify it for me too?

    David: Sometimes the local markup does not exist in XLIFF, so
    you have to use its. In some cases the local markup exists, but
    some information is lost in the mapping, so the attributes no
    longer make sense and depend on the data that was mapped.
    ... For that we use itsx-. The URI is actually the its-xliff
    namespace, but we use itsx- prefix.
    ... The namespace has been sort of defined.

    Felix: Point Tilde to [27]http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff/ There
    is nothing there, but there will be.

      [27] http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff/

    David: preserve space
    ... XLIFF uses xml:space, so what do we say about inline?
    ... There shouldn't be different whitespace behavior inline,
    ... so I would suggest to say that preserveSpace doesn't need
    to be defined for inline.

    Yves: You could, but I'm not sure tools can actually do it. But
    you could have an element in a paragraph where you need to
    preserve space.

    David: A code sample inline might need that. Can you put
    xml:space on that?

    Yves: You could. No idea what tools would do, but follow the
    example of xml:lang here.

    David: Agreed. Use generic xits- and xml:space
    ... Localization quality issue

    Dave: We decided to do this only in standoff mode.
    ... you can do it on unit, source, or target, depending on
    where the issue is and where it relates.


      [28] http://www.w3.org/ns/iits-xliff/
      [29] http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff/

    David: Localization quality issue

    Dave: Not finding anything on this in the spec.

    David: Not sure if the rating makes sense for inlines.
    ... Maybe in 1.2 if mtype="seg"
    ... In 1.2 both unit and seg are structural. But talking at
    that fine-grained level doesn't make sense.

    Yves: can we have it on a span element in HTML?
    ... If so, then we need to support it.

    Dave: We can't anticipate what people might do.

    David: We should have a note to say that it is discouraged to
    do it on spans and other inline elements.

    Dave: a lot of things like mtConfidence work at fine

    David: This is analogical. It's the same thing: a score.

    Dave: Would you apply these to an alt-trans?

    David: Alt-trans don't have any equivalent in the target

    Arle: I think it makes sense to support it because you might
    need it for your selection mechanism between multiple alt-trans

    David: Agreed.

    <scribe> ACTION: dlewis6 to make LQI and LQR similar to
    mtConfidence in structure. [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-510 - Make LQI and LQR similar to
    mtConfidence in structure. [on David Lewis - due 2013-05-14].

    David: mtConfidence. We don't have much for 2.0.

    <scribe> ACTION: dfilip to create mtConfidence examples for
    XLIFF 2.0 [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-511 - Create mtConfidence examples
    for XLIFF 2.0 [on David Filip - due 2013-05-14].

    David: for origin, it doesn't tell you what it should look
    like. Don't want to conflict with simple and advanced usages.

    Dave: the reasoning for using it as a flag was so that you'd
    know how to treat things in scenarios, but you can't reserve
    that phrase.

    David: We could recommend that origination is used for a URI.
    Then it would be like annotatorsRef, but it would be
    ... Maybe we use origin for annotators ref and then we could
    have---wouldn't need a flag then---because the ref would say it
    ... We get rid of annotatorsRes in alt-trans, but put it origin
    and then it is overloaded.

    Yves: Doesn't sound good to me. Tools already use origin and
    want to put values there.
    ... I use it to tell me that it comes from Microsoft
    ... We have matchQuality. Why not use annotatorRef like we do

    Dave: annotatorsRef then becomes the flag.

    Yves: I don't use annotatorsRef. It shouldn't behave
    differently depending on where it comes from.
    ... I already use it. You don't need to overload origin. It
    doesn't bring anything to the information. You already have

    Felix: The tools processing origin and mtConfidence don't need
    to understand both.

    Yves: Using it will create problems since we already use it.
    Not just mine, so we can't reuse it for an override.
    ... We would lose information.

    David: So shall we leave origin out of the example?

    Dave: Yes, it takes care of the problem.

    Felix: The conclusion of those in the room is not to confuse
    origin and annotatorsRef

    Dave: The only issue is that matchQuality doesn't have
    restrictions on the value.

    David: Could be anything: TM, MT, etc.
    ... Agree we can use mtConfidence as the flag for the
    processor. We don't have to specify what to do with origin.
    ... Allowed characters. This is only just now stable in terms
    of the regex. The mechanism is to use the
    its:allowedCharacters, in both XLIFF 1.2 and 2.0.
    ... StorageSize in 1.2 is clear. but need action about native
    attribute in 1.2.
    ... maxWidth.

    Yves: We actually decided we can't use local markup.

    David: 1.2 is resolved, but 2.0 needs checking.

    Yves: The example currently shows transunit, but normally it
    would apply to the element with the content that has the

    David: Make it always on source and target, in 2.0 as well.

    Yves: Should be the same for allowedCharacters.

    David: Agreed.

    <scribe> Scribe: pnietoca

    scribe pnietoca

"translate" definition

    Pablo: Felix is summarising his discussion with Robin Berjon
    about the handling of HTML translate


    Yves: Which of the 3 options choose?

    Jirka: Whatever you want!

    Karl: It should be the most supported

    Yves: Can support a bit of the three

    <Arle> \me darobin, what was the ID number for the GTM session
    you used.

    Pablo: Robin has just joined the meeting

    Yves: Talking in general about HTML5

    Robin: The text on HTML5.1 is going in the right direction
    ... The reference should be HTML5.1

    David: We understand we need to be in sync with HMTL5.1, but we
    need a normative reference



    Robin: You can normative reference to the above link


      [34] http://www.w3.org/TR/html51/dom.html#the-translate-attribute

    Felix: Encourage to look at the latest version of translate
    ... in the spec

    Yves: Looking at the text that is currently there, the
    attributte style
    ... is like a script
    ... why not a list of script attributtes there?

    Robin: It's terrible practice

    Felix: Putting the last reference from Robin in the spec
    ... it's ok with everybody?
    ... Agreed
    ... Talking with Robin about Ruby in HTML5 and the dropped one
    in ITS
    ... Would it be good to have a reference to the HTML spec for
    the moemnt?



    Robin: They are going to update it, so look to the latest

    Yves: Still something to do, correct the text about the use of
    translate XML vs HTML

    Felix: Showing how to point to HTML spec from the data category
    ... Felix changing the spec with the reference and needed text
    about translate attribute
    ... The case of translate is similar to language information,
    too many different behaviours
    ... We need to summarise the behaviour in a note of as of

    Karl: Provide examples of the predefined list of attributes
    ... Suggests not to have two subsequent links to HTML5 in the
    translate section of spec

    Felix: Seggests to change from TEI to another interchange
    format for the next spec

    <fsasaki> ACTION: daveL to ping lerory to update tests for
    translate in html5 and elements within text [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-512 - Ping lerory to update tests for
    translate in html5 and elements within text [on David Lewis -
    due 2013-05-14].

    Felix: New issues forbidden :)

    <Marcis> Hi Felix

    <Marcis> Now I do not hear you

    <fsasaki> we are restarting gotomeeting

    <fsasaki> from a different computer

    <fsasaki> can you leave the call and dial in the call?

    <fsasaki> sorry for the inconvinience

ITS 2.0 Enriched Terminology Annotation Showcase

    <Marcis> We can try

    <Marcis> (Skype)

    <Marcis> Tatiana's Skype name is kumeliite_1

    <fsasaki> tatiana: how you see the most recent version of the

    <fsasaki> .. implements all of the required functionality

    Tatiana: Show Tilde's demo of ITS enryched Term

    <fsasaki> .. annotating plain text example

    <fsasaki> demo shows how to upload a file to be annotated

    <fsasaki> tatiana: choose one of three languages. Now showing

    <fsasaki> tatiana: first annotation option is statistical
    annotation. 2nd is term bank based annotation

    <fsasaki> tatiana: orange term candidates

    <fsasaki> .. source shows how these are mapped to ITS. You can
    download annotated document

    <fsasaki> .. html "script" element contains term list

    <fsasaki> .. the html body contains references to terms from
    that list

    <fsasaki> marcis: termConfidence not given is term is comming
    from term bank

    <fsasaki> .. in html5 document you have a tbx format term entry

    <fsasaki> marcis: now example of annotation with html5 as input

    <fsasaki> now xliff examples

    <fsasaki_> now q/a

    <fsasaki_> dave: do you prioritze term bank over statistical

    <fsasaki_> .. what do you do if you get a clash?

    <fsasaki_> tatiana: you can switch

    <fsasaki_> .. e.g. having results only proceeded by statistical

    <fsasaki_> .. or you can have only euroterm bank results

    <fsasaki_> dave: what do you do if a word is matched in both?

    <fsasaki_> marcis: whenever you select term bank

    <fsasaki_> .. there is a filtering step

    <fsasaki_> .. not to put a heavy burden on the term bank

    <fsasaki_> .. in order to narrow down search space in term bank

    <fsasaki_> .. we select term candidates with statistics, then
    do term search in the term bank

    <fsasaki_> .. a user can select whether she wants to see the
    results of statistics or also term bank

    <fsasaki_> dave: the schema for the term entries in html?

    <fsasaki_> marcis: that are tbx entries

    <fsasaki_> dave: had you planned to offer this as a restful web

    <fsasaki_> marcis: it can be accessed as a web service api

    <fsasaki_> .. what you see is just a visual interface for

    <fsasaki_> .. everything what you send to a web page calls the

    <fsasaki_> dave: did you document the web service interface?
    can the other partners use that?

    <fsasaki_> marcis: the documentation will contain the API
    description as well

    <fsasaki_> tatiana: this is just an interface to showcase the

    <fsasaki_> tatiana: example of the agricultural domain

    <fsasaki_> .. that annotation gives quite a lot of terminology

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Dave to look at the XLIFF 2.0 change tracking
    module for provenance [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: daveL to ping lerory to update tests for
    translate in html5 and elements within text [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: david to make notes on extraction/merging
    behavior for target pointer [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: davidF to make notes on extraction/merging
    behavior for target pointer [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: dF to correct XLIFF mapping (change prefix its to
    itsx for certain attributes) [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: dfilip to create mtConfidence examples for XLIFF
    2.0 [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: dfilip to make notes on extraction/merging
    behavior for target pointer [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: dlewis6 to look at the XLIFF 2.0 change tracking
    module for provenance [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: dlewis6 to make LQI and LQR similar to
    mtConfidence in structure. [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to review draft for XLIFF mapping [recorded
    [NEW] ACTION: Felix to set up the URI placeholder for
    ITS2-XLIFF mapping ([47]http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff)
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Yves to examine XLIFF resource data module with
    respect to external resouce. [recorded in

      [47] http://www.w3.org/ns/its-xliff

    [End of minutes]

     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [50]scribe.perl version
     1.138 ([51]CVS log)
     $Date: 2013-05-07 21:56:31 $

      [50] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [51] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11
Check for newer version at [52]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/

      [52] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/iits-xliff/its-xliff/
Succeeded: s/"set"/"seg"/
Found Scribe: Arle
Inferring ScribeNick: Arle
Found Scribe: pnietoca
Inferring ScribeNick: pnietoca
Scribes: Arle, pnietoca
ScribeNicks: Arle, pnietoca
Present: Karl arle dF dave felix jirka karl mauricio milan pablo tadej y
ves ankit(IRC)
Agenda: [53]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Bled
Got date from IRC log name: 07 May 2013
Guessing minutes URL: [54]http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.ht
People with action items: dave davel david davidf df dfilip dlewis6 feli
x yves

      [54] http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes.html

    End of [55]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

      [55] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm


       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                                MLW-LT f2f

08 May 2013



    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/05/08-mlw-lt-irc


           ankit(IRC), tadej, karl, yves, felix, jirka, milan,
           pedro, pablo, mauricio, david, dave, phil, arle,
           shaun(implementers-session), sebastian(for NIF session),


           philr, others


      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]agenda review
          2. [6]usage in html
          3. [7]text analysis section
          4. [8]rdf ontology
          5. [9]ITS XLIFF
          6. [10]action item review
          7. [11]minutes from yesterday
          8. [12]karl's demo
          9. [13]pedro's demo for content authoring support
         10. [14]where to put things?
         11. [15]upcoming meeting planning
         12. [16]meeting setup
         13. [17]ITS2 in Gala
         14. [18]ITS 2.0 logo
         15. [19]ITS2 spec progress
         16. [20]deliverables
         17. [21]changes for translate and elements within text
      * [22]Summary of Action Items

agenda review

    <fsasaki> looking at


    <Ankit> sure

usage in html



    <fsasaki> "The Translate data category has a direct counterpart
    in [HTML5], namely the HTML5 translate attribute. ITS 2.0 does
    not define its own behaviour for HTML5 translate, but just
    refers to the HTML5 definition."



text analysis section



    <fsasaki> "This specification defines a normative way to
    represent text analysis information in XML and HTML locally.
    However, text analysis information can also be represented in
    other formats, e.g. JSON. The Internationalization Tag Set
    Interest Group maintains a description of such alternative
    serializations. Readers of this specification are encouraged to
    evaluate whether that description fulfills their needs and to
    provide comments in the ITS IG mailing list (p[CUT]



    daveL: serializations are different to mappings and ontology

rdf ontology


      [28] http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/ITS-RDF_mapping

    fsasaki: any other comments?

    daveL: stability of NIF?

    <fsasaki> now discussing comments from Sebastian, see


    daveL: are there still ongoing changes?

    sebastian: there will be versioning, for now 1.0 release which
    would then be stable
    ... ontology 1.0, NIF 2.0



    <sebastian> [31]http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/

      [31] http://www.w3.org/TR/its20/

    <fsasaki> latest version link?


      [32] http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core

    <sebastian> curl

      [33] http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core

    sebastian: url will redirect to latest version



    daveL: looking at chain of references from wiki
    ... make sure people accessing through ITS know the correct
    place to go and where to see updates

    <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to add ITS ontology reference(s) to the
    spec, referring to wiki / ontology namespace, ... [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-514 - Add ITS ontology reference(s)
    to the spec, referring to wiki / ontology namespace, ... [on
    Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-15].

    <sebastian> [36]http://nlp2rdf.org/nif-1-0

      [36] http://nlp2rdf.org/nif-1-0


      [37] http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core

    ore# -> HTML

      [38] http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core

    <fsasaki> www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf#

    daveL: maintain a link at the University of Leipzig persistent

    <sebastian> curl -H "Accept: text/html"

      [39] http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core

    <sebastian> -> HTML landing page -> ontology documentation in
    HTML , NIF 2.0 standard document


      [40] http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.html

    ore# is the most important

      [41] http://persistence.uni-leipzig.org/nlp2rdf/ontologies/nif-core

    <sebastian> url

    <fsasaki> NIF reference


    sebastian: ontology url is the most important as it then points
    to other documentation

    version numbers would probably drift apart again even if
    started the same



    fsasaki: please introduce your comments sebastian

    <sebastian> <ns0:comment

      [44] http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema
      [45] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#string

    <sebastian> @en

    daveL: assumption is that no datatype means string



    daveL: this would allow the language tag

    <fsasaki> ACTION: daveL to check where we need language tag in
    its ontology [recorded in

    <scribe> scribe: philr

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-515 - Check where we need language
    tag in its ontology [on David Lewis - due 2013-05-15].


      [48] http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#ObjectProperty

    <sebastian> Houston Airports <span
    pokeswoman</span> Marlene McClinton .

      [49] http://dbpedia.org/ontology/spokesperson
      [50] http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#ObjectProperty

    <sebastian> itsrdf:taPropRef

    tadej: reservations about this being an optimal serialization
    ... need a way to identify the subject, object and predicate

    <sebastian> dbpedia:George_Bush_Intercontinental_Airport
    rln-ont:spokesman rln-res:Marlene_McClinton .

    ba54b084aca96#char=X1,Y1> itsrdf:taIdentRef
    dbpedia:George_Bush_Intercontinental_Airport .


    tadej: I think the proposal for "Change 3" is fine

    fsasaki: can give some guidence on how to handle different
    ... volunteer to follow-up on Change 3?
    ... put some guidence into the ITS ontology


      [52] http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/ITS-RDF_mapping

    <fsasaki> [53]http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf#

      [53] http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf

    <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to move
    [54]http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.rdf to
    github - but where [recorded in

      [54] http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.rdf

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-516 - Move
    [56]http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.rdf to
    github - but where [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-15].

      [56] http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.rdf

    <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to make changes 4-5 at
    lt/2013May/0074.html [recorded in


    <trackbot> Created ACTION-517 - Make changes 4-5 at
    lt/2013May/0074.html [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-15].


    <sebastian> <[60]http://example.com/exampledoc.html#xpath(x0)>

      [60] http://example.com/exampledoc.html#xpath(x0)%3E
      [61] http://example.com/exampledoc.html#char=b0

    <sebastian> nif:convertedFrom

    <fsasaki> replace itsrdf:xpath2nif with nif:convertedFrom



    <fsasaki> "STEP 4 (optional): Serialize as XML or as RDF. The
    list with the XPath-to-text mapping can also be kept in memory.
    Part of a serialization example is given below." below that
    step explain that the example following consists of XML and RDF




    <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to subscribe everybody on the ITS IG
    list [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-518 - Subscribe everybody on the ITS
    IG list [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-15].

action item review



    <fsasaki> action-310?

    <trackbot> ACTION-310 -- David Lewis to go through the document
    and check data category naming (capital first letter plus
    hyperlink) -- due 2013-04-15 -- OPEN



    <fsasaki> close action-504

    <trackbot> Closed ACTION-504 Review draft for XLIFF mapping.

minutes from yesterday

    <fsasaki> [67]http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes

      [67] http://www.w3.org/2013/05/07-mlw-lt-minutes

karl's demo

    <fsasaki> [68]http://attrib.org/jquery-its-example/

      [68] http://attrib.org/jquery-its-example/

    <kfritsche> Example source code:

      [69] https://github.com/attrib/jquery-its-example

    <kfritsche> Current released:

      [70] https://github.com/attrib/jquery-its2

pedro's demo for content authoring support

    <fsasaki> part of rome workshop presentation, see


where to put things?


      [72] http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-mlw-metadata-us-impl-20130307/

    <fsasaki> banner at the top: implementers, users, usage

    <fsasaki> three banners like at

      [73] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/

    <fsasaki> have three tier layout at

      [74] http://www.w3.org/International/its/ig/

    <fsasaki> also update [75]http://www.w3.org/International/its/
    to mention ITS2

      [75] http://www.w3.org/International/its/

upcoming meeting planning



    <fsasaki> september frankfurt (tbc)

    <fsasaki> 25-26 November, or 26-27 November in Madrid

meeting setup

    <fsasaki> see proposal from Pedro at


    <fsasaki> beyond 2013 - point people to

      [78] http://www.w3.org/International/its/wiki/Main_Page

    <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to check about meeting schedule for
    september + november - due 10 May [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-519 - check about meeting schedule
    for september + november [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-10].

    <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to check 16-17 september in Walldorf
    including whether we can open up the meeting [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-520 - Check 18-19 september in
    Walldorf including whether we can open up the meeting [on Felix
    Sasaki - due 2013-05-15].

    <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to check "ITS teaching" in HTML5
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-521 - Check "ITS teaching" in W3C [on
    Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-15].

    <fsasaki> ACTION: jirka to put ITS2 content to web platform dot
    org after we have reached PR / PR - due 1 October [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-522 - put ITS2 content to web
    platform dot org after we have reached PR / PR [on Jirka Kosek
    - due 2013-10-01].

    <fsasaki> ACTION: arle to create content describing ITS2 for
    pitching for the LSPs [recorded in

      [83] http://www.gala-global.org/gala-standards-initiative

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-523 - Create content describing ITS2
    for [85]http://www.gala-global.org/gala-standards-initiative
    pitching for the LSPs [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-05-15].

      [85] http://www.gala-global.org/gala-standards-initiative

ITS2 in Gala

ITS 2.0 logo

ITS2 spec progress

    <fsasaki> next week wednesday call, decide to publish new "last
    call" draft




      [87] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/process.html#cfr

    <fsasaki> publish 14 June PR draft. then 4 weeks review.

    <fsasaki> final ITS2 spec mid July or end of July

    <Ankit> no problem..




    <fsasaki> ankit reporting on deep web training

    <fsasaki> ankit: planning to finish in august

    <fsasaki> .. will show at FEISGILTT progress

    <fsasaki> .. MT training with two language pairs

    <fsasaki> .. german-spanish, spanish-english

    <fsasaki> .. will show whether we can use ITS data to train
    translation model / language model

    <fsasaki> .. looking on hiring an intern to work on this

    <fsasaki> dave: how do you use ITS markup during training?
    filtering training corpora based on markup or using markup
    insdie the training corpora?

    <fsasaki> ankit: two steps - just use for e.g. domain tuning.
    next step, e.g. terminology and translate tags: these are used
    during translation model training

    <fsasaki> .. main goal is to use ITS tags inside training

    <fsasaki> mt service discussion - service will run by 22 may



    <fsasaki> pablo: D4.2.1 and D4.2.2 - plan to finish by the end
    of June

    <fsasaki> felix: will schedule a call early may. You then can
    get feedback on current state of D4.2.1 and D4.2.2 . Need to
    get draft showcase and draft report by then.

    <fsasaki> D3.1.5 "Report on LT-Web Processing in the CMS" -

    <fsasaki> D3.2.3 "Report on Showcases" - VistaTEC

    <fsasaki> D4.2.2 Report on Online MT System - Linguaserve

    <fsasaki> template for reports


    <fsasaki> felix: for june f2f goal is to have three summary
    reports in draft stage. All should contain information about
    state of implementations. In june f2f we will just look at the
    summary reports to judge what implemnetation is on track

    <fsasaki> felix: please make sure that you can do the
    committments done in the gdocs (sent link offline)



    <fsasaki> ACTION: arle to add a paragraph about the ITS2
    showcase to the rome report [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-524 - Add a paragraph about the ITS2
    showcase to the rome report [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-05-15].



    <fsasaki> ACTION: felix to add workshho hp links to
    deliverables page [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-525 - Add workshho hp links to
    deliverables page [on Felix Sasaki - due 2013-05-15].



    <leroy> go to meetingcall has cut out



changes for translate and elements within text





    <fsasaki> see the "translate" cell with info about html5



    <fsasaki> about elements within text: For XML content:
    withinText="no". For HTML5 phrasing content: withinText="yes".

    <fsasaki> html5 phrasing content:

     [100] http://www.w3.org/TR/html51/dom.html#phrasing-content-1

    <fsasaki> ACTION: arle to check logo "contest" options
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-526 - Check logo "contest" options
    [on Arle Lommel - due 2013-05-15].


     [102] http://r65.cooltext.com/rendered/cooltext1023889160.gif



Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: arle to add a paragraph about the ITS2 showcase
    to the rome report [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: arle to check logo "contest" options [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: arle to create content describing ITS2 for
    pitching for the LSPs [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: daveL to check where we need language tag in its
    ontology [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to add ITS ontology reference(s) to the
    spec, referring to wiki / ontology namespace, ... [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to add workshho hp links to deliverables
    page [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to check "ITS teaching" in HTML5 [recorded
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to check 16-17 september in Walldorf
    including whether we can open up the meeting [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to check about meeting schedule for
    september + november - due 10 May [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to make changes 4-5 at
    -lt/2013May/0074.html [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to move
    [116]http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.rdf to
    github - but where [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: felix to subscribe everybody on the ITS IG list
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: jirka to put ITS2 content to web platform dot org
    after we have reached PR / PR - due 1 October [recorded in

     [106] http://www.gala-global.org/gala-standards-initiative
     [116] http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/rdf-content/its-rdf.rdf

    [End of minutes]

     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [120]scribe.perl version
     1.138 ([121]CVS log)
     $Date: 2013-05-13 19:34:15 $

     [120] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [121] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Received on Monday, 13 May 2013 19:37:55 UTC