Re: <subline> becomes <subhead> and other updates

Hi Jukka,

>I still wonder what is the problem that such proposals are supposed to
solve.

I outlined some of the reasons for the proposal here
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2013May/0173.html

Here is what i think developers want (not necessarily need) anybody
feel free to add/subtract disagree etc

- A way to indicate part of a heading is differentiated from another
part as in title/subtitle/alterntive title
 - A way to indicate that text is not a heading but is closely
associated with a heading and more specific than a paragraph.
-  Easy ways to style such content

on top of that the semi-mythical outline algorithm wants /needs a way to
identify things that isn't heading content that should be included in the
outline, which is why <hgroup> was foisted upon us.


If the problem being solved is authors' question "which markup should I use
> for...", then I would say that such a problem needs no solution in the form
> of a new markup element. People have solved such problems over 20 years,
> with whatever HTML elements are available. There is no need for
> unification, partly because there is no objectively definable, reasonably
> exact definition for the structure that the new elements are supposed to
> indicate.
>

I tend to agree, but am exploring ideas such as <subhead> as i think part
of my job as an editor of the html spec is to try to make solid authors
suggestions and see if we can make something useful. Its the same reason I
have pursued the discussion on small, to stimulate discussion and see if we
can make progress on it even reach some rough consensus...

I have no great enthusiasm for pushing this proposal any further than it
currently is (i.e. an unofficial draft) in the process. But if it goes no
further, but helps make it clearer that such an element is not needed or
would not be supported by browsers etc, then it serves a useful purpose. It
may also make us think that perhaps the use of <small> to indicate
de-emphasised text in general is all we need to indicate some bits of a
heading are subordinate to others.

 But others may disagree and wish to put further effort into <subhead> or
some other idea, if so I would support that. (anybody thinking about this
should read Extension How To http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionHowTo)




--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>


On 8 June 2013 17:04, Jukka K. Korpela <jukka.k.korpela@kolumbus.fi> wrote:

> 2013-06-08 16:21, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>
>> <subline> becomes <subhead> and other updates http://rawgithub.com/w3c/**
>> subline/master/index.html<http://rawgithub.com/w3c/subline/master/index.html>
>> <http**://t.co/xWQE2owXRm <http://t.co/xWQE2owXRm>>
>>
>>
> I still wonder what is the problem that such proposals are supposed to
> solve.
>
> Surely there are often parts of headings that might be classified as
> "subheads", for example. Or they might seen as parts of headings styled
> differently. Is there some need to force authors into using one specific
> markup for them, as opposite to dealing with it with <small> or <span> or
> whatever? Even if this means that *no* currently used browser supports such
> markup?
>
> If the problem being solved is authors' question "which markup should I
> use for...", then I would say that such a problem needs no solution in the
> form of a new markup element. People have solved such problems over 20
> years, with whatever HTML elements are available. There is no need for
> unification, partly because there is no objectively definable, reasonably
> exact definition for the structure that the new elements are supposed to
> indicate.
>
> I would like to draw your attention to the book that has probably the
> best-known title with "sublines", The Origin of Species:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**File:Origin_of_Species_title_**page.jpg<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Origin_of_Species_title_page.jpg>The book cover has a longish heading presented in four or five different
> font sizes, divided in a manner that would presumably call not only for
> <subhead> but also <subsubhead> and <subsubsubhead>, if we think that any
> part of a heading that *could* be viewed as being structurally different
> from the rest *must* be marked up with a tag that indicates that.
>
> --
> Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~**jkorpela/ <http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/>
>
>
>