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RE: {minutes} HTML WG telecon 2012-05-17: action items, issues, and other business

From: Adrian Bateman <adrianba@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 14:05:16 +0000
To: "public-html-wg-announce@w3.org" <public-html-wg-announce@w3.org>
CC: "John Foliot (john@foliot.ca)" <john@foliot.ca>, "Edward O'Connor (ted@oconnor.cx)" <ted@oconnor.cx>, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>, Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, "HTML WG (public-html@w3.org)" <public-html@w3.org>
Message-ID: <8D8FE6C1B27E6645848ABEC8355A39BD36E7BD@CH1PRD0310MB391.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Minutes --> http://www.w3.org/2012/05/17-html-wg-minutes.html

- DRAFT - 
HTML Weekly Teleconference
17 May 2012
Agenda

Attendees
Present 
[GVoice], +25686aaaa, Aaron, hober, glenn, Sam, adrianba, Radhika_Roy, joesteele, paulc, Clarke, +1.206.850.aabb, eliot, Cynthia_Shelly, Judy, [Microsoft], Jay, kstreeter, tantek, Milan_Patel 
Regrets 
Chair 
Sam Ruby 
Scribe 
Adrian Bateman 
Contents
Topics 
ACTION items due by Thursday, May 17 
New Issues This Week 
Items Closed Last Week 
Items Closing This Week 
Items Closing Next Week 
New Calls this week 
New Surveys this week 
Decisions this week 
Other Business 
Scribe for next meeting 
Adjournment 
Summary of Action Items 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


trackbot, start telcon 

<trackbot> Date: 17 May 2012 

<scribe> ScribeNick: adrianba 

<scribe> Scribe: Adrian Bateman 

ACTION items due by Thursday, May 17
ACTION-210? 

<trackbot> ACTION-210 -- Sam Ruby to get JF to deliver a revised ISSUE-204 change proposal by next friday -- due 2012-05-10 -- OPEN 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/210 

rubys: this has been done 

<rubys> close action-210 

<trackbot> ACTION-210 Get JF to deliver a revised ISSUE-204 change proposal by next friday closed 

ACTION-211? 

<trackbot> ACTION-211 -- Sam Ruby to ted O'Connor to write up a video-transcript IDref proposal for ISSUE-194 by Fri May 11 -- due 2012-05-11 -- OPEN 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/211 

hober: there's been a lot of progress on this over e-mail while i was gone - i think we're close to producing a consensus proposal 
... probably by next week i would say 
... can we extend until next week 

paulc: are you saying we will end up with a single proposal? 

hober: i think we'll end up with 2, one to defer and one that would substantively match the idref proposal 

paulc: we'll still have to decide between a now feature and a future feature 

hober: yes 

rubys: the other proposal was to add transcript - will the consensus include john? 

hober: don't know - still catching up on mail 

rubys: could be consensus with silvia and not with john 

hober: that's possible 

<rubys> action-211 due 24 May 

<trackbot> ACTION-211 Ted O'Connor to write up a video-transcript IDref proposal for ISSUE-194 by Fri May 11 due date now 24 May 

paulc: if you could outline where the community lies when you update proposals that would be helpful 

ACTION-213? 

<trackbot> ACTION-213 -- Sam Ruby to get JF to deliver a revised ISSUE-194 change proposal by next friday -- due 2012-05-11 -- OPEN 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/213 

rubys: due last friday, anybody know the status? 

paulc: i believe ted's previous description, john started doing this and silvia got involved - i think there is a mail on the archive asking for an extension 

hober: if it would make it easier, consolidating the two actions might be useful 

rubys: i would like confirmation form john that he intends to support the consensus position 
... i will leave it as two actions and try to get in touch with john after the call 

<rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012AprJun/0016.html 

janina: we think we're coming to a single proposal that does include john 

<rubys> action-213 due 24 May 

<trackbot> ACTION-213 Get JF to deliver a revised ISSUE-194 change proposal by next friday due date now 24 May 

rubys: great news, moving this to next thursday also 

ACTION-217? 

<trackbot> ACTION-217 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to create an updated Caret ring focus (Rich, Ted, Frank) ISSUE-201 CP -- due 2012-05-11 -- OPEN 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/217 

rubys: on this we had a note from rich 

<rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012AprJun/0015.html 

hober: frank and rich have been emailing over the last week on this and i need to catch up on the thread - they've been making progress 

rubys: making progress but rich is on vacation for 2 weeks and he is asking for an extension to june 8 

hober: i think between now and then frank and i will be able to converge a lot more and then discuss with rich 

paulc: are there other people who need to involved here? 

janina: rich is the spearhead 

<rubys> action 217 due June 7 

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 217 

<rubys> action-217 due june 7 

<trackbot> ACTION-217 Create an updated Caret ring focus (Rich, Ted, Frank) ISSUE-201 CP due date now june 7 

paulc: perhaps we could get a status report on this next week also 

hober: sounds good to me 

paulc: let's put it on the agenda for next week 

ACTION-216? 

<trackbot> ACTION-216 -- Michael Cooper to update ISSUE-199 proposal based on Ted's -- due 2012-05-18 -- OPEN 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/216 

paulc: i sent michael a private note on this matter and got an indication back that he thought the date was wrong 

hober: i'm hoping to have a call with michael about this 

paulc: michael though the due date was may 25, perhaps we can make it may 24 for the call next week? 

<rubys> action-216 due 24 May 

<trackbot> ACTION-216 Update ISSUE-199 proposal based on Ted's due date now 24 May 

hober: sounds good 

rubys: okay 

ACTION-218? 

<trackbot> ACTION-218 -- Paul Cotton to determine day and time for a weekly Media teleconference -- due 2012-05-22 -- OPEN 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/218 

<paulc> Draft media teleconference survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/media/ (still closed and under Chair/Team review) 

paulc: i built a survey using wbs - that's a link to the draft - this is still closed 
... i'm taking feedback from people including chairs and team 
... i think i've taken everyone's feedback - this is available to w3c members outside the group because we believe there are some members who might join the WG to participate in this 
... this should go out today 
... since there may be more technical discussion in these calls we want to be as inclusive as possible 

janina: this is the media group in the WG not the a11y TF 

paulc: i will make that clear in the text for the survey 
... action not yet done but almost 

New Issues This Week
rubys: none 

<rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012AprJun/0014.html 

Items Closed Last Week
ISSUE-184? 

<trackbot> ISSUE-184 -- Add a data element -- open 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/184 

rubys: given a deadline for revised change proposals and the revision is complete - next step is for the chairs to review the revised proposals 

Items Closing This Week
ISSUE-205? 

<trackbot> ISSUE-205 -- Define what author guidance and/or methods should be provided to those that wish to create accessible text editors using canvas as a rendering surface. -- open 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/205 

rubys: given a deadline for revised proposals which is today 
... so far not seen any revisions 

Items Closing Next Week
rubys: None 

New Calls this week
rubys: None 

New Surveys this week
rubys: None 

Decisions this week
rubys: None 

Other Business
rubys: 31c re-open request 

judy: we received a response from sam on behalf of the chairs and we discussed that in the tf meeting this morning 
... several concerns including the framing of the response 
... we think what we received is ambiguous as either a review or denial of the request so we're taking it as a review that we intend to discuss a draft of next tuesday and forward with answers to questions raised 
... i wanted to first establish if this was intended as a review or denial 

rubys: in some sense it is a denial but not intended to close the door - if you update then we'll review 

judy: in the current timeframe? 

rubys: the timeframe has passed - we're in uncharted territory 

judy: i'm assuming we're still okay to continue 

rubys: nothing more to add, no 

judy: we'll be providing some additional clarifications to that, some concern about the type of evidence being asked for 
... will address those in writing 

rubys: there are some people who believe in some statements and others that believe the opposite - we'd like to see some concrete evidence 

judy: that is my understanding 
... i have to point out that there is a perception that the same requirement isn't being put on all parties 
... no further comments on 31c for now 

rubys: we need to actually show that if the validator was changed then people would actually change behaviour 

judy: i did include that in the change proposal but it's difficult to prove harm for something that is not in place yet 
... you don't want to have widespread evidence of damage - we want to avoid this happening because of something in the spec 

cyns: if someone were to create a controlled experiment looking at behaviour of authors based on validator results would that be helpful? 

rubys: comments from an actual user saying i would change behaviour based on validator is something we don't have already 

judy: if we just need a few quotes from people that do lots of training that this is exactly the situation they would pay attention to, those kind of things we have seen in the past over and over again 
... we can say that more clearly but i don't want to set-up projects to review this 

cyns: are you looking for anecdotal evidence or something else? 

rubys: anecdotal evidence was called for in the original decision - the closer you can get to actual users saying they will change behaviour the better 
... trainers for authors i understand the clarification, but if you can get information directly from authors that's helpful 

cyns: the problem is that if you ask people directly they don't know - i find it frustrating that asking trainers is discounted given their experience 
... one more point, one of the points judy made was about evidence from, for want of a better word, the other side 
... i don't think we have concrete evidence for that - it is similar experience from people dealing with authors 
... i'd really like to see real research but at the moment i don't see everyone being asked for the same evidence and i don't think asking authors is enough 

rubys: right now we're examining reopening the issue, if the issue is reopened then we'll ask for equal evidence from everyone 

cyns: i'm worried about locking out future behaviour like we discussed with 204 

judy: i don't think it's a question of future behaviour - the problem isn't locking out innovation, it's a failure to recognize existing authoring tool behaviour - and we have already documented that this though 

rubys: next up is HTML-A11Y task force consensus on issue-204 

issue-204? 

<trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open 

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204 

janina: the objections in the consensus resolution are from one individual that in many cases are looking for a different level of requirements 
... for instance that this should not be a pattern that we encourage 
... and use language that we use language that says SHOULD NOT use this 
... we have not ignored these objections but i don't know we can do anything more with them as it standards 
... his recent response is about a whole new approach 

rubys: i have 2 questions, one for benjamin about what he does support and he's not here to answer that 
... the other question is if we end up with the current two proposals i assume we will get strong objections to one of them 
... i think we tweaked cynthia's proposal sufficiently to bring the 2 in line 
... the recent version considers the implications of the changes 
... i cannot tell if the other proposal is saying exactly the same thing in the details section because it is a diff that is harder to read 
... i think the newest change is to discourage use of this 

cyns: i can't think of any stronger way of discouraging users than saying SHOULD NOT 
... isn't the time for counter proposals long past? 

<rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012May/0090.html 

judy: i'm concerned if someone isn't coming to the table to participate - it now seems like we're abandoning the work from the f2f? 

janina: aren't we trying to get to a single proposal? 

judy: are we dropping the good work done because of one person? 

rubys: we are going to proceed soon to a survey 

janina: is it possible the other proposal could be withdrawn to remove the need for the survey? 

hober: it is possible 

rubys: if that happened, normal action would be to do a CfC with a firm one week deadline after which we confirm consensus and move on 

hober: i need to talk to jonas 

cyns: do you know when? 

hober: hopefully today, otherwise early next week 

cyns: thanks for pushing on this 

rubys: Update on editor search 

<rubys> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012May/0086.html 

rubys: we have a number of candidates but have also chosen to extend the deadline 
... other business? 

judy: we need a coordination meeting 

rubys: i don't have any unmoveable meetings in the next couple of days 

<tantek> I've reviewed the recent messages on Issue 184, and I don't see any actions for me to take to move things forward. 

paulc: i'm starting a thread right now with the chairs 

judy: i had one could you use that one 

paulc: okay 

Scribe for next meeting
<glenn> i can scribe 

<tantek> For what it's worth I still think the counter-proposal is problematic, both for the reasons the chairs raise, and for the simple fact that a 'type' attribute is unnecessary and actually *hurts* usability of date/time information as compared to the simple and agreed upon <time> element. 

rubys: glenn has volunteered, thanks glenn 

Adjournment
<tantek> thanks 

rubys: thanks everybody 

Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Ruby [mailto:rubys@intertwingly.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:07 AM
To: announce
Cc: John Foliot (john@foliot.ca); Edward O'Connor (ted@oconnor.cx); Richard Schwerdtfeger; Michael Cooper; Paul Cotton
Subject: {agenda} HTML WG telecon 2012-05-17: action items, issues, and other business

The HTML Working Group will have its usual weekly teleconference on
2012-05-17 for up to 60 minutes from 16:00Z to 17:00Z.

http://timeanddate.com/s/28e8

Tokyo 01:00+1, Amsterdam/Oslo 18:00, London/Dublin 17:00,
New Jersey/York 12:00, Kansas City 11:00, Seattle/San Francisco 09:00.

Chair of the meeting: Sam Ruby
Scribe: Adrian Bateman

(See the end of this email for dial-in and IRC info.)

== Agenda ==

1. ACTION items due by Thursday, May 17

a) ACTION-210: Get JF to deliver a revised ISSUE-204 change proposal by
    next friday [Sam Ruby]
    http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/210

b) ACTION-211: Ted O'Connor to write up a video-transcript IDref
    proposal for ISSUE-194 by Fri May 11 [Sam Ruby]
    http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/211

c) ACTION-213: Get JF to deliver a revised ISSUE-194 change proposal by
    next friday [Sam Ruby]
    http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/213

d) ACTION-217: Create an updated Caret ring focus (Rich, Ted, Frank)
    ISSUE-201 CP [Richard Schwerdtfeger]
    http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/217

e) ACTION-216: Update ISSUE-199 proposal based on Ted's [Michael Cooper]
    http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/216

f) ACTION-218: Determine day and time for a weekly Media teleconference
    [Paul Cotton]
    http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/218

2. New Issues This Week:

    None

3. Items Closed Last Week

a) ISSUE-184: data-element, Revise Change Proposals closed May 11
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012May/0010.html
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012May/0077.html

4. Items Closing This Week

a) ISSUE-205: text-editing-canvas, Revise Change Proposals closes May 17
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0208.html

5. Items Closing Next Week

    None

6. New Calls this week

    None

7. New Surveys this week

    None

8. Decisions this week

    None

9. Other Business

a) 31c re-open request review
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012May/0094.html

b) HTML-A11Y Task Force Consensus on Issue-204
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012May/0079.html

c) Update on Editor Search
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012May/0086.html

10. Scribe for next meeting

11. Adjournment

== Dial-in and IRC Details ==

Zakim teleconference bridge:
   +1.617.761.6200 code: HTML (4865)

Supplementary IRC chat (logged):
   #html-wg on irc.w3.org port 6665 or port 80
Received on Friday, 18 May 2012 14:06:42 UTC

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