Re: Seeing the open issues

Hi Ian,

In your off (HTML WG) list response
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/0024.html
]
you have offered to help make a second "accessible" version of
http://www.whatwg.org/issues/

This is I believe is misguided and somewhat disingenuous:

"[09:51] <Hixie> and frankly, i don't care if it doesn't work in IE7
[09:51] <Hixie> that's IE7's prblem
...
[09:53] <Lachy> just that IE users are complaining
[09:53] <Hixie> that's their problem
[09:53] <Hixie> they need a better browser"

cite: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070821

If it is technically feasible as you infer (in your email) to provide a
version of the page that can be displayed in IE why not provide it in the
first place rather than having to duplicate the effort in developing a
second version? Providing an "accessible" alternative is always a last
resort.

Often times arguments on the HTML WG  mailing list are based on concepts
such as "real world" use cases. IE is a mainstream browser used by many
people.
Another concept is that "accessibility should be built in". Reasonable
efforts should be made to ensure that content for the consumption of
the working group members is designed to be displayed without users having
to jump through hoops in order to be able to access it.
The popular "pave the cowpaths" concept also comes to mind. Many users use
IE to access web content, design content so it can also be viewed in IE.

I suggest that the principles that result in accessible and usable content
are applied in the design process, rather than having to waste time
re-engineering.


On 21/08/07, Steve Faulkner <sfaulkner@paciellogroup.com > wrote:
>
> Ian wrote:
> >Given that this is a standards working group, requiring a browser that
> >supports three year old standards seems reasonable. No?
>
>
> For assistive technology users who cannot make use of modern browsers it
> is unreasonable.
> Why can't all AT users make use of current browsers?
> Because of the versions of assitive technology they use due to
> interoperability contstraints or monetary constraints (upgrading is
> expensive).
>
> So are we saying now that you cannot fully participate in the WG
> activities unless you use "approved" browsers?
>
>
> On 21/08/07, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 21 Aug 2007, Steve Faulkner wrote:
> > >
> > > Using IE 7 on XP when the page http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ opens it
> > > displays the message:
> > >
> > > "Your Web browser does not support DOM3 Core, which is required by
> > this
> > > application."
> >
> > Yeah, IE7 doesn't support some of the features I use (like
> > .textContent).
> > It should work fine if you use a more modern browser, like Firefox,
> > Safari, or Opera. I didn't do anything to work around browser bugs or
> > limitations in the development of this tool (except close two <p>
> > elements
> > that were confusing Opera, but then the HTML5 parsing spec isn't a
> > standard yet, so that's arguably not their fault); I just followed the
> > specs, like we're supposed to.
> >
> >
> > > Do need to point out the issues with requiring a browser with "DOM3
> > Core
> > > support" to view the content?
> >
> > Given that this is a standards working group, requiring a browser that
> > supports three year old standards seems reasonable. No?
> >
> > --
> > Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
> >
> > http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
> > Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG Europe
> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html