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Re: Minutes: August 5, 2010 HTML Accessibility Task Force

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:52:17 -0500
To: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
Cc: public-html-a11y@w3.org, public-html-a11y-request@w3.org
Message-ID: <OF80251254.071C6089-ON86257781.004C1FA5-86257781.004C32B7@us.ibm.com>

not sure how to do that once the minutes are posted. Here is the IRC. log:

IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-08-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:58 [RRSAgent]
      RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:58:58 [RRSAgent]
      logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/08/05-html-a11y-irc
14:59:14 [Stevef]
      Stevef has joined #html-a11y
14:59:36 [janina]
      zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
14:59:36 [Zakim]
      ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
14:59:44 [janina]
      zakim, call janina
14:59:44 [Zakim]
      ok, janina; the call is being made
14:59:46 [Zakim]
15:00:12 [Zakim]
15:00:22 [Marco_Ranon]
      Marco_Ranon has joined #html-a11y
15:00:49 [Zakim]
15:01:00 [Marco_Ranon]
      hi all. I can't dial in. Zackim UK busy apparently...
15:01:29 [MichaelC]
      regrets: Steven_Faulkner, Denis_Boudreau, Laura_Carlson,
15:01:37 [MichaelC]
15:02:04 [Zakim]
15:03:00 [JF]
      JF has joined #html-a11y
15:03:07 [Marco_Ranon]
      I'll be on IRC. Thanks Janina.
15:04:05 [Marco_Ranon]
      Since Zakim UK is a bit temperamental, do you mind if we use Skype
      and we dial in at 6 or 7 UTC?
15:04:40 [Marco_Ranon]
      I will need to run home just after the call but that's OK.
15:05:11 [janina]
      zakim, who's on the phone?
15:05:11 [Zakim]
      On the phone I see Eric, Janina, kliehm (muted), Michael_Cooper,
15:05:21 [Zakim]
15:07:50 [Zakim]
15:08:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
      richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:09:02 [Ben]
      Ben has joined #html-a11y
15:09:32 [Zakim]
15:09:50 [Zakim]
15:10:04 [jongund]
      jongund has joined #html-a11y
15:10:06 [Ben]
      zakim, ??P15 is Ben_Caldwell
15:10:06 [Zakim]
      +Ben_Caldwell; got it
15:10:14 [richardschwerdtfe]
      scribe: Rich
15:10:40 [kliehm]
      s/Since Zakim UK is a bit temperamental, do you mind if we use Skype
      and we dial in at 6 or 7 UTC?//
15:11:11 [Zakim]
15:11:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Topic: Actions Review
15:11:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
      janina: not a lot of people present
15:11:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
      janina: was there a media call yesterday
15:12:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: just a formal discsussion on time stamp formats.
15:12:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Topic: Action 28
15:12:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Action: 47
15:12:53 [trackbot]
      Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
15:13:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Topic: Action 47
15:13:08 [richardschwerdtfe]
      regrets from both Steve and Gregory
15:13:34 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Topic: Keyboard Access Requirements
15:13:51 [gfreed]
      gfreed has joined #html-a11y
15:14:04 [richardschwerdtfe]
      janina: We need UAAG to work with us on this. However, Gregory who is
      out was supposed to spearhead that for us
15:14:20 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Topic: Drag and Drop
15:14:50 [MichaelC]
      rs: asked PaulC for IE engineers to work on drag 'n drop solution
15:14:58 [MichaelC]
      nothing back yet
15:15:08 [MichaelC]
      cs: has been asking around, just waiting on responses
15:15:20 [richardschwerdtfe]
      janina: without feedback we cannot move forward
15:15:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
      janina: as it sits drag and drop were modelled on mouse actions but
      not in a device independent manor. So, we are on hold on this topic
15:16:08 [MichaelC]
      topic: Canvas subteam report
15:16:27 [MichaelC]
      rs: modified proposal to incorporate feedback from James Graham
15:16:36 [MichaelC]
      allow focus ring to use drawing path in canvas
15:16:45 [MichaelC]
      also adjusted caret tracking
15:17:16 [MichaelC]
      caret and focus need to be separate
15:17:23 [MichaelC]
      spent time with Ian on it
15:17:32 [MichaelC]
      he thinks it would be too complex
15:17:41 [MichaelC]
      but people who are working on accessibility will use that
15:18:04 [MichaelC]
      entered 2 bugs related to this
15:18:16 [MichaelC]
      no review yet on changes from James
15:18:31 [MichaelC]
      trying to make sure API would work
15:18:39 [MichaelC]
      tying to a drawing call is problematic
15:18:49 [MichaelC]
      not much more can do until hear back on reviews
15:18:55 [MichaelC]
      the drawing thing will be an issue
15:19:06 [MichaelC]
      next steps?
15:19:21 [MichaelC]
      don't expect a drawing thing soon
15:19:31 [davidb]
      db: (irc only) sorry i haven't been active on the canvas subteam
      (blame priorities)
15:19:34 [MichaelC]
      don't expect support for a API specific to accessibility
15:20:01 [Zakim]
15:20:11 [MichaelC]
      js: it's not sufficient to have a canvas element that doesn't meet
15:20:17 [MichaelC]
      we've created what we know meets the need
15:20:28 [MichaelC]
      so not up to us any more
15:20:34 [paulc]
      paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:20:36 [MichaelC]
      we can try to help them out
15:20:49 [MichaelC]
      zakim, Microsoft if Paul_Cotton
15:20:49 [Zakim]
      I don't understand 'Microsoft if Paul_Cotton', MichaelC
15:20:53 [MichaelC]
      zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton
15:20:53 [Zakim]
      +Paul_Cotton; got it
15:21:08 [paulc]
      zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
15:21:08 [Zakim]
      sorry, paulc, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
15:21:12 [MichaelC]
      jg: no developers stepping up?
15:21:36 [MichaelC]
      does Microsoft natively support canvas, or translate to their own
15:21:40 [MichaelC]
      pc: native support
15:21:55 [MichaelC]
      js: we seem to have an impasse
15:22:12 [MichaelC]
      we have an accessibility solution not widely supported
15:22:40 [MichaelC]
      not getting movement on finding a solution that meets everyone
15:26:28 [MichaelC]
      pc: suggest Janina and Paul discuss this issue at HTML chairs meeting
      next Monday
15:27:11 [MichaelC]
      would be good to have a problem statement in advance for the people
      not previously in the discussion
15:27:28 [MichaelC]
      js: asks Rich to prepare that
15:28:21 [MichaelC]
      pc: nobody understimates the amount of work that's been done
15:28:28 [MichaelC]
      very helpful to have clear statement of the logjam
15:28:39 [MichaelC]
      topic: ARIA mapping
15:29:08 [MichaelC]
      rs: had a call with Maciej last week
15:29:17 [MichaelC]
      wants us to break up change proposal into specific problem areas
15:29:28 [MichaelC]
      with the original content in section 3.2.6
15:29:34 [MichaelC]
      didn't understand reason for all the changes
15:30:05 [MichaelC]
      there's a whole collection of discrete changes needed
15:30:15 [MichaelC]
      cs: Steve was going to do some changes
15:30:25 [MichaelC]
      not sure if it's to the change proposal or the substance
15:30:41 [MichaelC]
      rs: so moving along fairly well
15:30:53 [MichaelC]
      cs: we should have an ARIA mapping call next week
15:32:09 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Topic: Media
15:32:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: we have are use cases and are working on technical requirements
15:32:44 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: We are grappling with the time line issue
15:33:12 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: What do we do when takes 10 seconds to describe a theme
15:33:45 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: For SVG they went SMIL and made it native to SVG. That is being
15:33:54 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: We are grappling with the larger isuue
15:34:03 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:34:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: We want to defer the hard stuff until we get the easy stuff done.
15:34:46 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: This is an incomplete solution
15:35:51 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Janina: if you assume all your media matches on the time line then
      you can't deal with deviations.
15:36:08 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Janina: extended is just one case where the time lines might diverge
15:36:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Janina: Say you have a half hour video with a lot of dialog and you
      want the video descriptions in the middle of it
15:36:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Janina: Do you want two downloads?
15:37:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
      cynthia: Is this a must have
15:37:24 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: yes and no
15:37:56 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: the concern is that if we don't figure out how to asynchronous
      timing it will make it difficult to circle back and pick up the
      straggling end.
15:38:26 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: the other problem is that if we spend too much time other items
      will suffer. we want implementers to try this out
15:38:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: It is a big problem
15:38:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
      jongunderson: I noticed that each time a video format comes out we
      have a new timed text format
15:39:14 [richardschwerdtfe]
      jongunderson: has a media developer ever adopted someone elses timed
      text format?
15:39:35 [richardschwerdtfe]
      jongunderson: Industry does never use a single timed text format
15:39:38 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: that is the problem
15:39:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: we have SRT which is a stripped down file
15:40:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: it is a simple text file
15:40:25 [gfreed]
      note that DFXP/TTML was supposed to solve the problem not having a
      single timed-text format for everyone to use.
15:40:27 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: some are looking to take this format and extend it
15:41:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: there is also timed text format. this is in most of the flash
      players today. TTML is an extremely large spec. It is overengineered
15:41:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: there are issues with the styling of it
15:41:28 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: It is an XML format. then there is the whole XML namespace
15:42:20 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: Silvia Pfypher at mozilla is looking at WWML. The feedback is
      that because it is XML based is a problem per HTML working group
15:42:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: that is the impass
15:42:49 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: Again, the asynchronous time line is going to be a vexing
15:43:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: any solutions will be delayed
15:43:45 [richardschwerdtfe]
      jongunderson: my only comment is to try and figure out where you are
      going to make progress. There does not seem to be any force out there
      that is trying to make it better. The incentives are to do your own.
15:44:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
      jongunderson: the markup in html 5. is it easy to detect if captions
      are added?
15:44:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
      jongunderson: my question is how to make captions for the file
15:44:51 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: there is a proposal in the WhatWG spec for the track element
      which would be a track of video
15:45:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: each track would add markup for the video
15:45:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: you would have tracks for different languages
15:45:49 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: it has been on the whiteboard for a while but that seems to be
      the general direction we are moving in
15:45:56 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: there is no formal name for it
15:46:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
      janina: we would rather these be text files vs. binary so that we can
      style them
15:46:37 [richardschwerdtfe]
      janina: for the majority of the time a supporting track could be a
      video file with sign language signing
15:47:20 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: we are agnostic as to what the support file in track would be.
      You need a control time line. this would be the primary media asset
15:47:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: this is the hardest piece to resolve
15:47:40 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: can we advance this to the larger HTML working group
15:47:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: we need to move on multiple fronts
15:48:11 [richardschwerdtfe]
      jongunderson: the timed text format thing is a tough one
15:48:13 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: yes
15:48:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: that is the hardest thing to resolve
15:48:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: It may turn religious
15:48:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: we want the user agent requirements to firmly laid out
15:48:58 [Ben]
      Ben has joined #html-a11y
15:49:13 [gfreed]
      will send a note to the list regarding the text format and possibly
      aligning it with other formats that are being adopted.
15:49:14 [richardschwerdtfe]
      JF: it really is going to be the last thing to get resolved. there
      are no easy answers
15:49:30 [gfreed]
      it will probably complicate the issue further. sorry...
15:49:33 [JF]
      thanks geoff
15:50:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
      michaelC: Marco and I will meet in a couple hours to see how we will
15:50:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
      michaelC: we will see if they are available
15:50:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
      michaelC: Laura will join us in a couple weeks
15:50:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
      michaelC: I am hoping it won't be a big time synch. Laura has been
      submitting reviews for several months
15:51:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Janina: canvas question
15:51:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Janina: where are we via Charles' proposal?
15:52:26 [MichaelC]
      rs: The proposal submitted included an allotment for using an <area>
15:52:31 [davidb]
      s/Silvia Pfypher at mozilla/Silvia Pfeiffer, funded by mozilla,
15:52:40 [MichaelC]
      Charles is away; when he gets back I'll be gone
15:53:05 [MichaelC]
      but at least the space exists for him to plug his work in
15:54:21 [Zakim]
15:55:09 [richardschwerdtfe]
      RRSAgent, make log member
15:55:12 [Zakim]
15:55:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
      RRSAgent: draft minutes
15:55:21 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2010/08/05-html-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
15:55:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Zakim: bye
15:56:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
      Zakim bye
15:56:20 [Zakim]
15:56:22 [Zakim]
15:56:23 [Zakim]
15:56:23 [Zakim]
15:56:24 [Zakim]
15:56:24 [Zakim]
15:56:25 [Zakim]
15:56:26 [Zakim]
15:56:30 [Zakim]
15:56:31 [Zakim]
      WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
15:56:33 [Zakim]
      Attendees were Eric, Janina, kliehm, Michael_Cooper, John_Foliot,
      Marco_Ranon, Jon_Gunderson, Rich, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly,
15:56:49 [richardschwerdtfe]
      RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:56:49 [RRSAgent]
      I have made the request to generate
      http://www.w3.org/2010/08/05-html-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
15:58:01 [Ben]
      Ben has left #html-a11y
15:58:11 [janina]
      janina has left #html-a11y
16:21:42 [gfreed]
      gfreed has left #html-a11y
16:32:06 [eric_carlson]
      eric_carlson has left #html-a11y
16:35:45 [richardschwerdtfe]
      richardschwerdtfe has left #html-a11y
17:31:06 [Zakim]
      Zakim has left #html-a11y

Rich Schwerdtfeger
CTO Accessibility Software Group

From:	Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
To:	Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, public-html-a11y@w3.org
Date:	08/08/2010 07:47 AM
Subject:	Re: Minutes: August 5, 2010 HTML Accessibility Task Force
Sent by:	public-html-a11y-request@w3.org

I can't access the minutes. I'm getting a "Sorry, Password Required".

Could the minutes please be made public viewable?


Best Regards,

On 8/5/10, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> Minutes: August 5, 2010 HTML Accessibility Task Force:
> http://www.w3.org/2010/08/05-html-a11y-minutes.html
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> CTO Accessibility Software Group

Laura L. Carlson

(image/gif attachment: graycol.gif)

Received on Monday, 16 August 2010 13:53:04 UTC

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