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RE: Notice of impending Formal Objection to Issue 30 Decision (@longdesc)

From: John Foliot <jfoliot@stanford.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
To: "'Leif Halvard Silli'" <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>, "'David Singer'" <singer@apple.com>
Cc: "'HTML Accessibility Task Force'" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <017f01cb3b08$99b0f780$cd12e680$@edu>
Leif Halvard Silli wrote:
> David Singer, Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:06:15 -0700:
> > I'm not usually one to raise points of grammar, spelling, or
> > semantics, but since it's come up twice on the same thread on the
> > same day, I think it's worth pointing out that
> >
> >    "begging the question"
> >
> > does NOT mean "raising the question" but means "assuming the answer
> > in the question" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question>
> Wikipedia says: ]]More recently, "to beg the question" has been used as
> a synonym for "to raise the question":[[

For what it's worth, my usage earlier was exactly as David described, as I
already knew the answer - using non-conformant constructs in HTML5 has
zero negative effect - draconian fail being long ago laughed out of town.
Thus, continuing to use @longdesc in HTML5 documents has virtually no
down-side, but *does* include the upside in that the mechanism still works
in browsers that support @longdesc, and for screen reader users that use
pretty much any browser (as the attribute and value string are in the

The chairs may have wrongly ruled, but the people are never wrong. Believe
in @longdesc? Just keep using it.


> Swedish Wikipedia says - in my translation
> (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petitio_principii):
> ]]
> A Petitio principii is usually a request.
> A petitio principii is a proof which is logically valid, since the
> conclusion follows the premisses, but which is not a binding proof
> since the truth of the premises is not known. It is even called (in
> Greek) en 'archei aiteisthai' and [in English] 'begging the question',
> the latter since it is used in connections where someone asks that the
> premise should be investigated.
> [[
> As for my own use of this phrase:
> > Charles McCathieNevile, Fri, 13 Aug 2010 06:15:13 +0800:
> >
> >> It may be the case that a future version of
> > ARIA can change this. However, this boils down to having exactly the
> > same attribute, with a new name, available on more elements, in some
> > unspecified future when ARIA 2 is ready.
> >
> > Well pointed out.
> >
> > Which begs the question: why not rather put @longdesc directly into
> > ARIA, and just globalize @longdesc, as a native attribute - to all -
> > relevant - elements in HTML5?
> If what Charles said is true, namely that a ARIA solution simply
> involves recreating @longdesc with a new name in ARIA, then we can just
> as well use @longdesc directly. I believe Charles is right, but it
> should be investigated.
> I am not convinced that the modern usage is all that different from the
> old usage.
> --
> leif halvard silli
Received on Friday, 13 August 2010 16:58:04 UTC

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