- From: Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com>
- Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 14:56:16 +0100
- To: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group <public-dwbp-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <cb5afe14-0b6c-36be-f82b-7f3d866aba05@derilinx.com>
Hi all,
Thanks for all the comments. In light of the Directors' Call on Monday,
I think we need to draw a line under this so that we can ensure the CR
doc in place for tomorrow's meeting.
Addison has approved all comments, which addresses directors' concern.
The example in place does depict 'locale-neutral data representations',
so in that way is fit for purpose. Even if it does use metadata.
Alternatively would be to *rewrite *the example, taking into account
Addison's specific example of bus-fare. Or directly *replace *the
example text with the following:
For example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's
strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:
…
"price" {
"value":2000.00,
"currency":"EUR"
}
…
I hope I have captured the options succinctly and that this can be
decided today, so that Phil can finalise the doc at his side.
Cheers,
Deirdre
On 25/08/2016 01:37, Annette Greiner wrote:
>
> Hi Bernadette,
>
> Of course you're right that "2015-05-05" can also be data, but in this
> example it is metadata so it doesn't really function as an example of
> what the BP is mostly about. We could use the same example as is
> already in there from Addison, maybe just call it a bus fare. I'll
> defer to others more familiar with vocabularies for the dct:conformsTo
> question.
>
> -Annette
>
>
> On 8/24/16 11:38 AM, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>> Hi Annette,
>>
>> thanks for your answer! Just a brief explanation: I understood that
>> "2015-05-05" is also *data* and because of this I said that it is an
>> example of locale-neutral representation.
>>
>> I have just two more questions:
>>
>> - I am still not sure if we should keep "dct:conformsTo". Should we
>> keep it?
>>
>> - I understand that to have an example of locale-neutral
>> representation we should present some instances from the dataset. But
>> I don't see how to do this considering the dataset attributes and
>> their corresponding data types [1]. Could you please give me an example?
>>
>> cheers,
>> Bernadette
>>
>> [1]
>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/dwbp-example.html#dataset-structural-metadata
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2016-08-24 14:32 GMT-03:00 Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>:
>>
>> I think it's a fine idea to put both the locale-neutral and the
>> metadata approaches into example 13, but the metadata is not an
>> example of a locale-neutral representation of the *data*. We need
>> to show that in the data itself.
>>
>> -Annette
>>
>>
>> On 8/24/16 4:56 AM, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> @Phil, thanks a lot for making the updates! @Annette and Addison
>>> thanks for the comments and suggestions!
>>>
>>> I agree with the changes made until now, but I'd like to answer
>>> the following comment:
>>>
>>> Finally, the example marked prominently as Example 13
>>> looks like the
>>> primary suggestion for implementing the BP, which it
>>> isn't anymore. I
>>> think the 2000 Euro example should be at least as
>>> prominently marked.
>>>
>>>
>>> I sympathise but I'm going to have to leave that to the
>>> editors. It can be done by simply adding class="example" to
>>> the <pre> element. But, doing that then means that the
>>> example numbers will be out of step with the BP numbers from
>>> that that point on, which I *think* editors have been
>>> anxious to avoid?
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think its a good idea to change the numbers of the
>>> examples. One solution could be to make some changes on the
>>> example 13.
>>>
>>> Example 13 shows both the use of locale-neutral representation
>>> and locale-parameters metadata. We have the tag "xsd:date" in
>>> 'dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date', but we also have
>>> 'dct:conformsTo
>>> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm
>>> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm>>' to
>>> indicate the standard adopted as date format.
>>>
>>> :stops-2015-05-05
>>>
>>> a dcat:Dataset ;
>>> dct:title "Bus stops of MyCity" ;
>>> dcat:keyword "transport","mobility","bus" ;
>>> dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date ;
>>> dcat:contactPoint
>>> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact
>>> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact>> ;
>>> dct:temporal <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015
>>> <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015>> ;
>>> dct:spatial <http://www.geonames.org/3399415
>>> <http://www.geonames.org/3399415>> ;
>>> dct:publisher :transport-agency-mycity ;
>>> dct:accrualPeriodicity
>>> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A
>>> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A>> ;
>>> dcat:theme :mobility ;
>>> dcat:distribution :stops-2015-05-05.csv ;
>>> dct:language <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en
>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en>> ,
>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt
>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt>> ;
>>> dct:conformsTo
>>> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm
>>> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm>> ;
>>> .
>>>
>>> Should we have both ou just xsd:date? If I understood correct, I
>>> think we should keep just xsd:date. In this case, we can also
>>> change the example description to mention that we are using a
>>> locale-neutral representation for date and a locale-parameter
>>> metadata (dct:language) to specify the languages in which
>>> dataset is published. See the suggestion below:
>>>
>>> The example below shows the use of xsd:date providing a
>>> local-neutral representation for the issue date of the bus stops
>>> dataset (|stops-2015-05-05|). Considering that the data from the
>>> bus stops dataset is already in a locale-specific format, then
>>> the property |dct:language| is used to declare the languages
>>> the dataset is published in. If the dataset is available in
>>> multiple languages, use multiple values for this property.
>>>
>>> :stops-2015-05-05
>>>
>>> a dcat:Dataset ;
>>> dct:title "Bus stops of MyCity" ;
>>> dcat:keyword "transport","mobility","bus" ;
>>> dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date ;
>>> dcat:contactPoint
>>> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact
>>> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact>> ;
>>> dct:temporal <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015
>>> <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015>> ;
>>> dct:spatial <http://www.geonames.org/3399415
>>> <http://www.geonames.org/3399415>> ;
>>> dct:publisher :transport-agency-mycity ;
>>> dct:accrualPeriodicity
>>> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A
>>> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A>> ;
>>> dcat:theme :mobility ;
>>> dcat:distribution :stops-2015-05-05.csv ;
>>> dct:language <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en
>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en>> ,
>>>
>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt
>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt>> ;
>>>
>>>
>>> Please, let me know what do you think about this.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Berna
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Annette
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/23/16 7:11 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Phil,
>>>
>>> Thanks. This looks good to me.
>>>
>>> Addison
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org
>>> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 3:29 AM
>>> To: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com
>>> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>; Deirdre Lee
>>> <deirdre@derilinx.com
>>> <mailto:deirdre@derilinx.com>>; Bernadette
>>> Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
>>> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>;
>>> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
>>> Cc: ishida@w3.org <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
>>> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>; www
>>> International
>>> <www-international@w3.org
>>> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should
>>> recommend locale-neutral
>>> representation #187
>>>
>>> Thanks again Addison,
>>>
>>> Pls see below.
>>>
>>> On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Phil,
>>>
>>> This looks good. A few comments.
>>>
>>> 1. Rather than providing your own definition
>>> for 'locale', you might
>>> make
>>>
>>> use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].
>>>
>>> Done
>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter
>>> <http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter>
>>>
>>> 2. The "why" is still missing something. I
>>> would suggest adding a
>>> new first
>>>
>>> paragraph explaining locale-neutral first.
>>> Something like:
>>>
>>> --
>>> Data values that are machine-readable and
>>> not specific to any
>>> particular
>>>
>>> language or culture are more durable and less
>>> open to
>>> misinterpretation than
>>> values that use one of the many different
>>> cultural representations.
>>> By using a
>>> locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to
>>> establish specific
>>> interchange rules that vary according to the
>>> language or location of
>>> the user.
>>>
>>> When the data is already in a
>>> locale-specific format, providing locale
>>> parameters... <rest of existing text>
>>>
>>>
>>> Done, exactly as you suggest
>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>> <http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>
>>> With luck... the doc gets a green light from you?
>>>
>>> Thanks again
>>>
>>> Phil.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Hope that helps,
>>>
>>> Addison
>>>
>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale
>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org
>>> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
>>> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
>>> To: Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com
>>> <mailto:deirdre@derilinx.com>>;
>>> Phillips, Addison
>>> <addison@lab126.com
>>> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>; Bernadette
>>> Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
>>> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>;
>>> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
>>> Cc: ishida@w3.org
>>> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
>>> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>;
>>> www International
>>> <www-international@w3.org
>>> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3
>>> should recommend
>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I have taken further steps on this. The
>>> result can be seen at
>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>> <http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>
>>> 1. Addision's text used more or less
>>> verbatim; 1a. taken account of
>>> Annette's suggestion; 1b. replaced
>>> inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with
>>>
>>> references 2.
>>>
>>> title of the BP changed to Use
>>> locale-neutral data representations 3.
>>> moved to Data Formats section as
>>> resolved in WG meeting on Friday; 4.
>>> added R- FormatMachineRead to list of
>>> evidence and thereby updated
>>> the UCR cross matching; 5. updated the
>>> Challenges SVG diagram; 6.
>>> updated my Pull request.
>>>
>>> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP
>>> so that any links to
>>> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still
>>> work. I know there are some of
>>> these, for example, in the Share-PSI
>>> project.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>>
>>> Phil.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
>>>
>>> HI,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your comments Addison.
>>> I think they make sense and
>>> should be straight-forward to
>>> incorporate.
>>>
>>> The title of the BP should probably
>>> also be updated to something
>>> like 'Provide locale-neutral data'
>>>
>>> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's
>>> meeting we also agreed to move
>>> BP3 to the Data Formats section from
>>> the Metadata section, which
>>> would make it BP14, right?
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Deirdre
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips,
>>> Addison wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Phil,
>>>
>>> Thanks for starting on this. I
>>> think the pull request is a good
>>> start.
>>> I have some comments on it.
>>>
>>> My main concern is that this BP
>>> is really backwards. It recommends
>>> to "locale parameter metadata"
>>> and then says that the simplest way
>>> to do this is to use
>>> locale-neutral formats. The
>>> recommendation
>>> should be more like "use
>>> locale-neutral formats or provide
>>> locale/language information
>>> where that's not possible". The pull
>>> request captures the use of
>>> locale-neutral, but doesn't really
>>> explain about when to provide
>>> locale and language information.
>>>
>>> I would change this:
>>>
>>> --
>>> <p class="practicedesc">Provide
>>> metadata about locale parameters
>>> (date, time, and number formats,
>>> language).</p>
>>> --
>>>
>>> To say:
>>>
>>> --
>>> <p class="practicedesc">Use
>>> locale-neutral data structures and
>>> values, or, where that is not
>>> possible, provide metadata about the
>>> locale used by data values.</p>
>>> --
>>>
>>> I would change:
>>>
>>> --
>>> <p>The simplest method is to use
>>> local-neutral representations of
>>> the actual data, and then add
>>> metadata to provide relevant locale
>>> information. For example, rather
>>> than storing "€2000.00" as a
>>> string, it's strongly preferred
>>> to exchange a data structure such
>>> as:</p>
>>> --
>>>
>>> To say:
>>>
>>> --
>>> <p>Most common data
>>> representations are locale
>>> neutral. For
>>> example, XML Schema types such
>>> as xsd:integer and xsd: date are
>>> intended for locale-neutral data
>>> interchange. Using locale-neutral
>>> representations allows the data
>>> values to be processed accurately
>>> without complex parsing or
>>> misinterpretation and also
>>> allows the
>>> data to be presented in the
>>> format most comfortable for the
>>> consumer of the data. For
>>> example, rather than storing
>>> "€2000,00"
>>> as a string, it's strongly
>>> preferred to exchange a data
>>> structure
>>> such as:</p>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Also, note the misspelling of
>>> "locale-neutral" in the pull
>>> request.
>>>
>>> I would then go on to add some
>>> text about when locale parameters
>>> are needed. Something like:
>>>
>>> --
>>> Some datasets contain values
>>> that are not or cannot be rendered
>>> into a locale-neutral format.
>>> This is particularly true of any
>>> natural language text values.
>>> For each data field that can contain
>>> locale affected or natural
>>> language text, there should be an
>>> associated language tag used to
>>> indicate the language and locale
>>> of the
>>>
>>> data.
>>>
>>> This locale information can be
>>> used in parsing the data or to
>>> ensure proper presentation and
>>> processing of the value by the
>>>
>>> consumer.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> (Sorry for not generating a pull
>>> request of my own)
>>>
>>> Addison
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Phil Archer
>>> [mailto:phila@w3.org
>>> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
>>> Sent: Friday, August 19,
>>> 2016 8:37 AM
>>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio
>>> <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
>>> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>;
>>> Annette Greiner
>>> <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison
>>> <addison@lab126.com
>>> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>;
>>> ishida@w3.org
>>> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
>>> public-dwbp- comments@w3.org
>>> <mailto:comments@w3.org>;
>>> www International
>>> <www-international@w3.org
>>> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review
>>> comment] BP3 should recommend
>>> locale-neutral
>>> representation #187
>>>
>>> I took an action on today's
>>> call to try and address this
>>> in BP3.
>>> You can see the results at
>>>
>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>> <http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>
>>> This uses some of Addison's
>>> text directly and highlights
>>> the value
>>> of the xsd datatypes - but
>>> retains enough of the
>>> original BP for
>>> it to be an amendment rather
>>> than a whole new one - I hope.
>>>
>>> This addresses most of the
>>> resolution taken today [1]
>>> but I have
>>> not moved the BP to the
>>> formats section. I leave
>>> that to the
>>> editors who may want to make
>>> further changes - or argue
>>> for it to
>>> be left where it is, or add
>>> references from the formats
>>> section
>>> or, or,
>>>
>>> or...
>>>
>>> I've created the Pull
>>> Request
>>> https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>>> <https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447>
>>>
>>> Phil.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>>> <https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02>
>>>
>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28,
>>> Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Ishida,
>>>
>>> This comment [1] is
>>> still under discussion
>>> [4] and we'd like to
>>> ask your opinion about
>>> two of our proposals:
>>>
>>> 1. to include
>>> locale-neutral
>>> representation ideas as
>>> part of BP3
>>> [2], or 2. to include a
>>> paragraph at the
>>> introduction of Section
>>> 8.8 Data Formats [3] to
>>> discuss the relevance of
>>> having
>>> local-neutral
>>> representations.
>>>
>>> We also discussed the
>>> proposal of having a new
>>> BP and we agreed
>>> that we won't have a lot
>>> of time for a broader
>>> review of the new
>>> BP and to collect
>>> feedback from the community.
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot!
>>> DWBP editors
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>>> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/>
>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>>>
>>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>> <http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>
>>> [3]
>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats>
>>> [4]
>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009
>>> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009>.
>>> ht
>>> ml
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-08-04 23:26
>>> GMT+02:00 Annette
>>> Greiner
>>> <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>:
>>>
>>> Hi Addison,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your
>>> response, and it
>>> does make sense. I
>>> think what I
>>> am still missing is
>>> whether there is
>>> guidance we can
>>> point to as
>>> to how to represent
>>> the "locale-neutral"
>>> data so that it can
>>> most easily be made
>>> locale specific by
>>> existing tools. You
>>> mention "pre-made
>>> standards for the
>>> basic data types".
>>> Is there
>>> a recommended list
>>> we could
>>>
>>> reference?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help!
>>> -Annette
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM,
>>> Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Annette,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the
>>> note. This is a
>>> personal reply
>>> not on behalf of
>>> the WG.
>>>
>>> Locale neutral
>>> formats are
>>> quite common on
>>> the Web and the
>>> Internet in
>>> general. One
>>> familiar format
>>> referenced by your
>>> document, for
>>> example, is XML
>>> Schema. While the
>>>
>>> representations
>>>
>>> of numbers,
>>> dates, and the
>>> like in XML
>>> Schema would be
>>> "more
>>> appropriate" for
>>> some
>>> languages/locales
>>> than others if
>>> given as
>>> plain text, what
>>> distinguishes
>>> them is that
>>> they are all
>>> machine readable
>>> and intended to
>>>
>>> be read by machines for
>>> later processing.
>>>
>>> The display of
>>> values is a
>>> separate, local,
>>> concern for the
>>> data's consumer.
>>> This necessarily
>>> means choosing
>>> specific
>>> separators (such
>>> as decimal
>>> separators) over
>>> other, more
>>> localized
>>> values. Save for
>>> "free
>>>
>>> text"
>>>
>>> (natural
>>> language) data,
>>> most data
>>> formats are
>>> locale neutral
>>> and these
>>> include things
>>> like JSON-LD,
>>> XML Schema, CSV,
>>> and so
>>>
>>> forth.
>>>
>>> Not every
>>> possible data
>>> structure or
>>> data value is,
>>> of course,
>>> covered fully.
>>> For example, in
>>> my day job (I
>>> work at Amazon),
>>> we have many
>>> different common
>>> measurement
>>> units defined
>>>
>>> internally.
>>>
>>> To transmit
>>> these in a
>>> locale-neutral
>>> manner, we need to
>>> construct our
>>> own data schemas
>>> and identifiers.
>>> There are
>>> profoundly many
>>> ways to measure
>>> shoes, dresses,
>>> auto parts,
>>> hats, drone
>>> propellers, and
>>> so forth. But it
>>> would be a
>>> nightmare to
>>> have to deal
>>> with localized
>>>
>>> presentation formats on top
>>> of that.
>>>
>>> But there are
>>> pre-made
>>> standards for
>>> the basic data
>>> types and
>>> these are what
>>> are needed to
>>> build almost any
>>> data structure
>>> necessary for
>>> global
>>> interchange of data.
>>>
>>> Does that make
>>> sense?
>>>
>>> Addison
>>>
>>> Addison Phillips
>>> Principal SDE,
>>> I18N Architect
>>> (Amazon) Chair
>>> (W3C I18N WG)
>>>
>>> Internationalization
>>> is not a feature.
>>> It is an
>>> architecture.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original
>>> Message-----
>>>
>>> From:
>>> Annette
>>> Greiner
>>> [mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>]
>>> Sent:
>>> Thursday,
>>> August 04,
>>> 2016 12:04 PM
>>> To:
>>> ishida@w3.org
>>> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
>>> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>
>>> Cc: www
>>> International
>>> <www-international@w3.org
>>> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
>>> Subject: Re:
>>> [i18n review
>>> comment] BP3
>>> should recommend
>>> locale-neutral
>>> representation
>>> #187
>>>
>>> Hello on
>>> behalf of
>>> the DWBP WG,
>>>
>>> We're
>>> interested
>>> in pursuing
>>> this concept
>>> in our best
>>> practice
>>> document,
>>> but we would
>>> like some
>>> clarification
>>> of the practice
>>> of locale
>>> neutrality.
>>> You
>>> mention the
>>> variation
>>> across
>>> locales in
>>> decimal symbol,
>>> grouping
>>> symbol,
>>> number of
>>> grouping
>>> digits,
>>> digit shapes,
>>> etc., and
>>> you give an
>>> example of a
>>> locale-neutral
>>> data
>>> structure
>>> for monetary
>>>
>>> values.
>>>
>>> But this
>>> structure
>>> alone does
>>> not appear
>>> to address
>>> differences
>>> in decimal
>>> symbol,
>>> grouping
>>> symbol,
>>> number of
>>> grouping
>>> digits, or
>>> digit
>>> shapes. It
>>> does provide
>>> a mechanism
>>> to
>>> separately
>>> specify the
>>> units, and
>>> the example
>>> uses an
>>> ISO-4217
>>> currency
>>> code, both
>>> of which we
>>> agree are
>>> good ideas.
>>> Is there a
>>> broad
>>> standard
>>> (beyond just
>>> monetary) for
>>> addressing
>>> the other
>>> symbol/representation
>>> issues you
>>> raised
>>> that we can
>>> address
>>>
>>> briefly in our best practice?
>>>
>>> Do you
>>> consider SI
>>> units
>>> consistent
>>> with a
>>> locale-neutral
>>>
>>> approach?
>>>
>>> Is there a
>>> locale-neutral
>>> standard for
>>> representing
>>> decimal
>>> numbers
>>> (perhaps
>>> using a
>>> period and
>>> no grouping,
>>> as in your
>>>
>>> example)?
>>>
>>> -Annette
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/22/16
>>> 5:32 AM,
>>> ishida@w3.org
>>> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> [raised
>>> by
>>> aphillips]
>>>
>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>
>>> Best
>>> practice
>>> #3
>>> introduces
>>> itself as:
>>>
>>> Providing
>>> locale
>>> parameters
>>> helps
>>> humans
>>> and computer
>>> applications
>>> to work
>>> accurately
>>> with
>>> things
>>> like dates,
>>> currencies
>>> and
>>> numbers
>>> that may
>>> look
>>> similar
>>> but have
>>> different
>>> meanings
>>> in
>>> different
>>> locales.
>>>
>>> But the
>>> actual
>>> best
>>> practice
>>> is to
>>> use
>>> **locale-neutral**
>>> representations
>>> that are
>>> interpreted/displayed
>>> to end-users
>>> in a
>>> locale-appropriate
>>> manner.
>>> For
>>> example,
>>> instead of
>>> storing
>>> the
>>> string
>>> "€2000.00",
>>> exchanging
>>> a data
>>> structure
>>> like the
>>> following
>>> is strongly
>>> preferred:
>>>
>>> ```
>>> "price" {
>>>
>>> "value":
>>> 2000.00,
>>> "currency":
>>> "EUR"
>>> }
>>> ```
>>>
>>> The date
>>> examples
>>> given
>>> are all
>>> in
>>> xsd:date
>>> format,
>>> which is
>>> an
>>> excellent
>>> example
>>> of using
>>> a
>>> locale-neutral
>>> format.
>>>
>>> Many
>>> things
>>> are
>>> dependent
>>> on
>>> locale:
>>> decimal
>>> symbol,
>>>
>>> grouping
>>>
>>> symbol,
>>> number
>>> of
>>> grouping
>>> digits,
>>> digit
>>> shapes,
>>> etc. It's
>>> because
>>> there
>>> can be
>>> wide
>>> variation
>>> (sometimes
>>> open to
>>> misinterpretation)
>>> that
>>> sending
>>> a locale
>>> neutral
>>> format is
>>>
>>> preferred for data values.
>>>
>>> Note
>>> also btw
>>> that the
>>> position
>>> of the
>>> currency
>>> symbol is
>>> dependent
>>> on the
>>> locale.
>>> In
>>> France
>>> it would
>>> be normal to
>>> write
>>>
>>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>
>>> Same
>>> even
>>> when
>>> talking
>>> about
>>> USD when
>>> using $,
>>> ie.
>>> 2000.00 $.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Annette Greiner
>>> NERSC Data
>>> and
>>> Analytics
>>> Services
>>> Lawrence
>>> Berkeley
>>> National
>>> Laboratory
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Annette Greiner
>>> NERSC Data and
>>> Analytics Services
>>> Lawrence Berkeley
>>> National
>>> Laboratory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil Archer
>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>
>>> http://philarcher.org
>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>> <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>> @philarcher1
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil Archer
>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>
>>> http://philarcher.org
>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>> <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>> @philarcher1
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil Archer
>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>
>>> http://philarcher.org
>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>> <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>> @philarcher1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil Archer
>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>
>>> http://philarcher.org
>>> +44 (0)7887 767755 <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>> @philarcher1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bernadette Farias Lóscio
>>> Centro de Informática
>>> Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> Annette Greiner
>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bernadette Farias Lóscio
>> Centro de Informática
>> Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> Annette Greiner
> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>
--
------------------------------------
Deirdre Lee, CEO & Founder
Derilinx - Linked & Open Data Solutions
Web: www.derilinx.com
Email: deirdre@derilinx.com
Address: 11/12 Baggot Court, Dublin 2, D02 F891
Tel: +353 (0)1 254 4316
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Twitter: @deirdrelee
Received on Thursday, 25 August 2016 13:56:59 UTC