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[MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2022-05-09

From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 19:19:44 +0000
Message-ID: <E1no8uy-00030v-AR@titan.w3.org>
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
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VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2022-05-09

  1. IP Note
  2. Call Notes
  3. Introductions & Reintroductions
  4. Announcements
  5. VC-EDU Interoperability Plug Fest with Sharon Leu (JFF)
  Kerri Lemoie
  Our Robot Overlords
  JeffO Real-IT, Greg DiDonato, Kerri Lemoie, Lisa Genoese (EBSCO), 
  Tim Bouma, Sharon Leu, Mallory Dwinal-Palisch, Rebecca Busacca, 
  Kayode Ezike, Manu Sporny, Timothy Summers, Julien, Cherie 
  Duncan, Gerardo Saenz, David Ward, Brandon Muramatsu, Matthieu 
  Collé, Taylor, David Chadwick, Simone Ravaoli, Dmitri Zagidulin, 
  Geun-Hyung, Deb Everhart, John Kuo, Phil L (P1), Deepak Kulkarni, 
  Kimberly Linson, Sandro Cacciamani, Stuart Freeman, Shrikant 
  Jannu, Marty Reed,  Chad Smith@EBSCO, Nate Otto, Julien Fraichot, 
  Will Ross, Gerard, Colin (LEF), Andy Miller, Jim Goodell, James 
  Chartrand, Phil Barker, Andrew Fisher, Mutuzo Irene Esther

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
<deb_everhart> good morning/afternoon everyone!
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you for joining the verifiable credentials 
  education task force on May ninth. After we go through a few 
  notes and then we're going to have a presentation with Sharon Leu 
  from JFF and JFF Labs who is going to be introducing the 
  interoperable plugfest for education.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie:  IP note anyone can participate in these calls but 
  if you'd like to make any substantive contributions to any of 
  this work you should be a member of the ccg with full type are 
  agreement side you should ensure you have a W3 account and then 
  this is Link in the chat is the contributor license agreement.
<kerri_lemoie> license agreement: 

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie:  Secondly all of these meetings are recorded So 
  they have audio and oftentimes video and a transcriber. our 
  transcription is being automated so we call this our transcriber 
  robot you may see in the chat that the transcription happening 
  there and you could help us with the minutes if you put in any 
  sort of a substitutions and Corrections for anything that the 
  transcriber gets really right you can do this.
Kerri Lemoie:  By typing s/.
Kerri Lemoie:  Correct term / and then correct term and put that 
  in the chat for you right now.
Kerri Lemoie:  The example is right there in the chat. Note that 
  we also use a queue system especially when we have as many 
  members as many participants as we do today so if you would like 
  to speak please put Q Plus in the chat like so and then you could 
  remove yourself from the chair of the cube - as a facilitator I 
  will keep an eye on that and make sure that you get called on.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie:  Would anyone like to introduce themselves today?
<mallory_dwinal-palisch> I'm new!
Kerri Lemoie:  And now you would you like me to turn on your 
  audio and boost your self.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay thanks Murray.
Mallory_Dwinal-Palisch: Sure thanks so much hi everyone my name 
  is Mallory Gwen all Palin I'm the chancellor of reach University 
  we do apprenticeship degrees originally just in teaching but as 
  we think about apprenticeship degrees across other Industries are 
  looking to learning and employment records that meet best 
  practices and Industry standards so really excited to be here.
Rebecca_Busacca: And my name is Rebekah abused sock'em with 
  Territorial and we provide comprehensive learning records and 
  digital wallets and our CTO is on the call with us as well his 
  name is Gerardo.
Kerri Lemoie:  Excellent thanks Rebecca Gerardo you introduce 
  yourself before but would you like to say hello again.
Kerri Lemoie:  Anybody else would like to make an introduction or 
  reintroduction update on anything you're working on.
Kerri Lemoie:  Does anybody have any announcements that like to 
  make today.

Topic: Announcements

Dmitri Zagidulin:  So used to what my.
Kerri Lemoie:  You have the floor.
<manu_sporny> Verifiable Credential API test suites: 
Manu Sporny:  Hey thanks um so just an announcement that is 
  somewhat relevant to this call they recently set of test Suites 
  that were released for the verifiable credential API I'll put the 
  link in the chat Channel viable potential test Suites viable we 
  go in the tunnel.
Manu Sporny:  The test Suites are basically testing the basic 
  interoperability between the issuance infrastructure verifier in 
  occur in we have test suite for the signature test Suite the 
  Edwards are your test Suite this is first of many different test 
  Suite that we're releasing for interoperability they're ready for 
  experimental integration we already have multiple implementers 
  passing these test Suite so that's a good.
Manu Sporny:   Good thing just letting this.
Manu Sporny:  Now that those are out there and we will be 
  releasing probably one you test Suite every other month next up 
  are things like credential refresh and credential status list and 
  add key and things of that nature that's it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Excellent thank you money.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I'm so used to hearing announcements saying 
  the AIA W is coming up but now I W has has passed but there's 
  going to be another one in the fall so mark your calendars 
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes okay anybody else like announcements.
Kerri Lemoie:  I can hear you Phil.
Phil_L_(P1): Can you hear me carry quick announcement I don't 
  have details of this other than a date but it looks like there 
  will be a meeting in DC in July on the 14th regarding the use of 
  of national language NLP AI + ml techniques to extract both.
Phil_L_(P1):  skills and competency data.
Phil_L_(P1): See data from unstructured sources as well as to 
  look at unstructured representations of credentials and consider 
  their mapping to verifiable credential data models so the best I 
  can tell you at the moment is that it will be in d.c. on the 14th 
  of July at the Microsoft DC facility but keep an eye on both T3 
Phil_L_(P1):  urn and.
Phil_L_(P1): Sources for the exact dates exactly further 
  information thanks.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks Phil I don't see anybody else in the queue.

Topic: VC-EDU Interoperability Plug Fest with Sharon Leu (JFF)

Kerri Lemoie:  So I think we can get started.
Kerri Lemoie:  Today we have Sharon Leu here from JFF and JFFLabs 
  and before she gets on I just wanted to say a couple of things 
  about about what's going to happen today which is going to 
  describe and how it relates to this group. At VC edu our primary 
  objective objectives are to provide resources, guidance, and 
  support for the alignment of learning employment and achievement 
  credentials to the verifiable credential standard and we're also 
  looking at.
Kerri Lemoie:   How do we align with the common behaviors and.
Kerri Lemoie:  Protocols that can help to increase integrity and 
  the understandability of learner data across as many contexts as 
  learners need. It's a very ambitious goal and we're very much at 
  the beginning of this and making some great progress. So Sharon's 
  here today to introduce an initiative with JFF and VC-EDU that 
  encourages community participation and collaboration to help us 
  move towards these goals and even though it's very early it's a 
  good way to help us make progress on the topics that we have open 
  now that we really wanted to move forward on.
Kerri Lemoie:   So just a reminder before Sharon comes on if you 
  have any questions.
<deb_everhart> for context, see 
Kerri Lemoie:  Feel free to put them in the chat or also queue 
  yourself in the chat and I'll keep an eye on it. Sharon the floor 
  is yours.
<deb_everhart> you're a contributor, not a stalker!
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Deb
Sharon Leu:  Thank you Carrie and thank you for having me back I 
  feel like I'm stalking this group for sure now because it is I 
  think the second time in as in as many months that I've been on 
  here but as Kari said what I wanted to do was talk to you a 
  little bit about something that jff labs and the national 
  Governors Association is working on and essentially I guess I'm 
  really Manu I appreciate you making an announcement about.
Sharon Leu:   About the test Suites and that you are.
Sharon Leu:  Leasing every month and it's good to hear that there 
  are actually a lot of multiple there are multiple implementers of 
  that I think that one of the things that I'm interested in is how 
  to have more implementers of this kind of interoperability 
  testing in the education and employment communities so as general 
  context I'll say that jmf is a National not-for-profit 
  Organization that is interested in figuring out how to provide.
Sharon Leu:  Equitable opportunity for all and part of that is 
  through jff Labs thinking about the ways that technology and 
  investments in technology can accelerate some of that one of the 
  things that we've been thinking a lot about is the ways that 
  individuals can represent themselves and their abilities and 
  thinking about the various different ways that individuals learn 
  and are given credit for the skills they have whether on the 
  workplace or formerly at educational Institution.
Sharon Leu:   Ins and for this group I think.
Sharon Leu:  Prize that the answer is those are all actually just 
  assertions and basically credentials so in this in if we if we 
  are pursuing our vision which is to have interoperability amongst 
  these credentials so that individuals can curate a set of these 
  over their lifetime then we need to think about the different 
  ways that we can begin to demonstrate this we published some 
  research that you were so kind to allow me to present to this 
Sharon Leu:   Last month.
Sharon Leu:  Talked a lot about the different digital wallet 
  products that are in this ecosystem right now and specifically 
  the verifiable credentials ones and what we want to use this 
  opportunity to do then is to build on that work and to say like 
  actually it would be ideal if there were more digital wallets 
  project products and projects in the education and employment 
  ecosystem that did implement the VC standard so this is our 
  attempt to I guess support.
Sharon Leu:   The community in doing.
Deb Everhart: 
Sharon Leu:  This we have our partners at the national Governors 
  Association and at Walmart to have really generously given us 
  this space to do this and how we intend to do this is in 
  partnership with who we consider to be our end users which are 
  communities including policymakers educational institutions we 
  have a community of practice through the national Governors 
  Association of I think 14 States and a half a dozen or so 
  Observer States.
Sharon Leu:   Who are.
Sharon Leu:  In implementing these Statewide but what the 
  question that we want to ask is what is the infrastructure needs 
  to look like to give Learners and workers the most amount of 
  flexibility and so we came up with this idea of mimicking a lot 
  of the work that the w3c has already been doing through the S VIP 
  program to actually allow the different providers in the 
  education ecosystem to demonstrate interoperability to provide 
  some assurance that as States and networks begin.
Sharon Leu:   To implement this that.
Sharon Leu:  It won't that Learners will maintain the most amount 
  of flexibility that they can so we have we are going to try to I 
  guess on-ramp ourselves into this interoperability plugfest 
  demonstration exercise and our first activity will be in about a 
  month what we would like to do is sort of as a first attempt I 
Sharon Leu:  The I think at the first of what I hope is many 
  attempts to do this we'd like to start the goal being the true 
  multi-vendor multi-platform interoperability of the credential 
  right so a learner can take their credential no matter where they 
  earn it and move it with them wherever they want including across 
  multiple different records sorry different wallets and different 
  sort of credentialing platforms with that goal in mind we want to 
  start really simply with just seeing what the different digital 
Sharon Leu:   Is look like in the Verifiable
Sharon Leu:  Credentials format in as many wallets as possible so 
  what I did so there is an invitation that went out and I will be 
  happy to I think I posted it on the public group list serve as 
  well what we'll be doing is we'll just be doing that very short 
  sequence a verifiable credential in the open badge 3 format which 
  I know hasn't been released yet but I think I'll let Carrie talk 
  a little.
Sharon Leu:   Bit about that in a minute that.
Sharon Leu:  You any wallet provider and displayed and we have I 
  guess a ten thousand dollar Bounty for this I don't think Bounty 
  is probably the right word but we have ten thousand dollars that 
  were willing to give to any while it's provider that's willing to 
  participate in this exercise we haven't dictated any of the other 
  terms and I think we want to use this time to discuss some of the 
  questions that you might have about this so I guess Carrie.
Sharon Leu:   Do you want to add a.
Sharon Leu:  All the things to what we're proposing to just give 
  a little bit broader context before we get into some of the 
  specific questions to discuss.
<deb_everhart> the first community interoperability demonstration 
  event on Monday, June 6, 2022, from 1 PM to 5 PM CT, as a 
  pre-conference event preceding the JFF Horizons conference.  You 
  can register for this event separately at https://cvent.me/A2ov3L
Deb Everhart: https://horizons.jff.org/
Kerri Lemoie:  Sure so what we were thinking is that it would 
  make sense to issue a single single education credential or 
  achievement credential into the wallet and we were talking about 
  using open badges 3.0 because it is almost ready for candidate 
  release in June next month and IMS Global has already made it 
  possible so that we could start piloting with this standard so we 
  can start working.
Kerri Lemoie:   Hang on.
Kerri Lemoie:  Already have been started working on making an npm 
  module with that standard over at the DCC so the members of the 
  DC I've been working on that already so we should have that 
  available pretty soon so it makes it easy to say okay we have 
  this one badge Swiss one standard is already aligned with 
  verifiable credentials and I'm let's see how we could display 
  this inside of a wallet which is something that we've been trying 
  to accomplish at BC and you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Johnson the cure to calling him sharing okay.
John Kuo:  So is the plugfest just to to issue and presents an 
  open badges three data schema credential and not to Move It from 
  wall across wallets but just to plug in the ob3 you know 
  credential is that is that the limit of the the plugfest or are 
  we expected to show that this you know could actually.
John Kuo:  There's been issued to wallet to another wallet that 
  is my question.
Sharon Leu:  For this first stage we just want to issue and 
  display all of these things will happen in subsequent steps 
  afterwards but there are I think a number of people in the 
  education Community who do issue credentials who are not in the 
  VC format and what we want to do is help people on ramp into this 
  community and into this process.
John Kuo:  Okay that's clear thank you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Brandon you have the floor.
Brandon_Muramatsu: Does this mean that today the open bass V3 
  specification is publicly and openly available to anyone that 
  wants to look at it and use it for this poke plugfest or is it 
  still proprietary.
Kerri Lemoie:  I can answer that one turn on the open badges 
  repository is public that was part of the agreement between 
  Mozilla and IMS Global when it was shifted there so while the 
  meetings are private the repo is public and I will I'll add a 
  link to that in the chat in a minute.
<brandon_muramatsu> thanks
Kerri Lemoie:  Right now the secret here is empty Marley.
Deb Everhart: 
Marty Reed:  Yeah so one of the question I have is in regards to 
  what the what the credential to exchange is I think there's a lot 
  of Hello world out there right now and I would just encourage 
  something a little bit more substantive in this in this 
  credential to be exchanged.
Marty Reed:  That makes sense.
Sharon Leu:  Okay so I'll take the first stab at it but also like 
  pain to carry as well Marty I don't actually think there are a 
  lot of hello worlds out there that are really hello worlds and I 
  think this is what we mean to see through doing this exercise is 
  if it is real.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks for link @Deb!
Sharon Leu:  Because I guess without sounding overly critical I 
  think my understanding is that many of the many people who 
  believe they have done it really have not.
Kerri Lemoie:  I might yeah I could add just a little bit to that 
  which is that the VC-EDU recommendation the model recommendation 
  report hasn't been released yet but will be released probably 
  early summer and that open Badges and CLR I have just made to 
  allowing to VCS so we haven't actually been doing the sit-in up 
  interoperable way yet or is interoperable as we could be and so 
  this is a push toward starting that so it is very rarely although 
  we do have some.
Kerri Lemoie:   Stations they're not exactly exactly.
Kerri Lemoie:  They will be going forward.
<phil_l_(p1)> +q
Kerri Lemoie:  Dimitri you're in the queue.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks yeah I wanted to chime in respond to 
  Marty hi I think we can't underestimate the sheer difficulty of 
  doing cross-platform cross language hello world with digital 
  signatures like I think you would be shocked the amount of issues 
  and wallets that can't handle the hello world yet so baby steps.
Kerri Lemoie:  Manu you have the floor.
Marty Reed: +1 Dmitri
Manu Sporny:  Yeah I guess a couple of points I think the first 
  and most important one is that our company digital Bazaar is 
  committed to helping in this effort I know that we're early days 
  and it's going to take awhile but our organization you know 
  started in education many years ago participates in the Silicon 
  Valley and interop.
Manu Sporny:   G and we.
Manu Sporny:  A great need for the type of interoperability 
  testing that that jff is is proposing here so we do plan to 
  participate I know that you know the path isn't quite clear but 
  at least looking at you know the OB 30s back I know that at least 
  our organization can issue.
Manu Sporny:  Any ob3 Oak you know hello world example today so 
  we would be able to use we we can choose between two different 
  cryptography suites we can take it as long as it's in verifiable 
  credential format we could send it through the verifiable 
  credential API and we can issue a conformant credential in this 
  is using and this is not you know this is not a this is not a 
  demonstrator this is the same infrastructure that we're using.
Manu Sporny:   NG to roll out.
Manu Sporny:  Angels to 152,000 convenience stores across the 
  United States it's used in retail it is production facing stuff 
  so we're very interested in helping in this initiative we are 
  happy to provide you know our infrastructure to get us there I'm 
  fairly convinced that we can do issuance and verification at 
  least get you know some conformance to the spec into the upcoming 
Manu Sporny:   Credential to a.
<dmitri_zagidulin> (I can say a few words about wallet protocol)
Manu Sporny:  Group crypto sweets I'm fairly confident we can do 
  that the only thing I'm struggling with is the wallet protocol 
  and that's not a challenge just for the vce to you industry it is 
  a challenge for all the industries it's being actively debated in 
  talked about right now but even then we could reuse something 
  that we used in the Silicon Valley Innovation program like 
  chappie to move something from an.
<deb_everhart> current text of the near final OB3 spec 
<kerri_lemoie> Will call on Dmitri_Zagidulin  next (then Phil)
Manu Sporny:  To a wallet and display it there so all the pieces 
  are there and it's good that we're saying that you know it's 
  going to take you know multiple interop fests to get to where we 
  want to get to but I just wanted to speak in support of the 
  initiative I think it's a great initiative our company is 
  absolutely you know willing to participate and will you know over 
  the next year or more that's it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you my new Sharon do you have anything 
  before I call I'm Dimitri.
Sharon Leu:  No I appreciate those comments money let's call 
Kerri Lemoie:  Energy of the floor.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you yeah I want to say big +1 to what 
  Manu said said so one of the one of the interesting and difficult 
  things about this interop and again even though it's hello world 
  it's going to tell it tests multiple the full range of the 
  ecosystem is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Have to participate wallets have to 
  participate to display we have to we have to settle on the data 
  model interop which is will will all agree on an example open 
  badges version 3 credential and most importantly which is what 
  Mana pointed out.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The participants will need to agree on minimal 
  protocol right so it is it is a test of data model protocol and 
  display so in order to make this work the issuer's on the wallets 
  will need to agree on a minimal subset of protocol so that the 
  well it's can pick up the credential from the shores and display 
  it so it's.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That'll be part of part of the cohort 
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah exactly that's a part of the collaborative 
  efforts of this is that will work together to decide those things 
  they're not being dictated at all.
Kerri Lemoie:  Phil Long you have the floor
Phil_L_(P1): Yeah I just most of the conversation just now has 
  addressed the clarification that I was hoping to hear the one 
  thing that I wanted to double check is that is the expectation 
  that an issue will need to be able to issue their credential to 
  at least two different vendor wallets that are in the sweet.
Phil_L_(P1):  or is just.
Kerri Lemoie:  Sharon do you want to answer that one.
Sharon Leu:  Okay so I I can be swayed but I think that I am 
  going to stick to my guns about this being a very first baby step 
  and say issue to 1 although I would love if it was multiple I 
  just want to be reasonable about how big this first step is so 
  I'm happy to hear people's feedback I like in my bones want to 
  say more than one but I am afraid that that is too hard.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you David see you are in the queue.
<dmitri_zagidulin> I think the Query Languagee is part of thee 
<manu_sporny> Hrm, does "display" mean -- in the wallet -- or at 
  the verifier?
Dmitri Zagidulin: +1 Manu - the query language is more for the 
  verifier, not the wallet
<nate_otto_(he/him)> I interpreted "display" to just be visual in 
  the wallet app, not yet through presentation (another baby step)
<simone_ravaioli_(digitary)> @David, Define “Crypto Suite” ?
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to call Armani because I think he might 
  have some answers to David's questions.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Simone - for example, "this wallet will 
  support Ed25519 crypto suite"
Kerri Lemoie: +1 To great questions
Manu Sporny:  Oh no no no I did not unfortunately they're great 
  they're great questions I have opinions about what it could be 
  but I think what we're trying to do is explore well I don't know 
  right so the the the high-level question David David raised some 
  very good questions and they need to be answered at some point 
  right so I'll kind of leave it there happy to apply more if if we 
  get to you know that that down in the weeds.
Manu Sporny:   But I know.
Manu Sporny:  Kind of wanted to ask Sharon what does success look 
  like to jmf in the first month or the the governor's Association 
  right so what what do they need to see happen in this first 
  iteration to convince them that there is something substantial 
  going on here in understanding that that is just one set of you 
  know people we're trying to make happy you know.
Manu Sporny:   Oh in the first iteration the.
Manu Sporny:  Is you what is this community feel is you know it 
  defines success in that first baby step so for example my you 
  know my opinion is is it would be a success if we could just get 
  the data format issuing and verifying without the wallets and I 
  completely understand the desire to put the wallets in there and 
  get that protocol working and absolutely we should be working on 
  that in parallel.
Manu Sporny:   But I want to see.
Manu Sporny:  If you know where where success is like or do we 
  feel like we've made good progress if in the first iteration 
  we've got data modeling or op in crypto sweet interop for 
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Manu - I think verifying is trivial compared 
  to displaying in wallet
Kerri Lemoie:  Sharon do you want to have fun.
<manu_sporny> @Dmitri -- yes, agreed -- display is difficult.
Sharon Leu:  Okay yeah okay so I'll say like what are some of my 
  not technical like goals and then I'll say some of what I think 
  are the sort of like things that necessarily have to happen in 
  order to make that happen right so I think that what when we're 
  introducing something brand new that people have just heard about 
  what we want to show someone is that what we really want to 
  demonstrate is that this is a real different path forward and 
  that it can really.
Sharon Leu:  Which is why when which is why I see in the chat 
  that displays an air quotes I think that people just want to see 
  what it looks like first as the very first introduction so we've 
  introduced A New Concept to people recently we've said that it's 
  not just a bunch of digital credentials which are hugely popular 
  in education right now there is a giant market place this is 
  where a significant amount of dollars in the education technology 
  in the training and the employment.
Sharon Leu:   Technology space.
<phil_l_(p1)> Is there a verification end point that all wallets 
  will point to for the plugfest?
Sharon Leu:  Funneled but we're saying is that in order for all 
  of these disparate Investments to work they need to work together 
  which is to say that they need to all have to share a common data 
  format we'd like for that to be the verifiable credentials data 
  format for a lot of the reasons that we specify in our report so 
  now we've introduced a new topic and we've also introduced a new 
  way of acting and behaving that is a little scary because it's 
  different from the norm so for some people who I think favor 
  institutional stability this is a way of.
Sharon Leu:   Of us demonstrating.
Sharon Leu:  This new way actually works like we're not selling 
  them the Rocketship car we're saying yes rocket ship card does 
  great things but as a first step it actually works these things 
  actually work and they can work together so that is like one key 
  goal is to introduce to a community a brand-new technical Concept 
  in a way that is not intimidating but I think the second and more 
  important one is for this particular Community to begin to work 
  together to make these decisions I think a lot of time there are 
  times there is you know lots of.
Sharon Leu:   Aza Tories and a lot of apis and a lot of code and 
  a lot of.
Sharon Leu:  To get them to work together in real life and I 
  think everyone has all of the right intentions which is why we 
  spend time together every other Monday but I think what we want 
  to do is to actually start to work together to make this real I 
  think we all share this vision and getting a cohort together to 
  even minimally work on one baby step is I think the start of what 
  Humphrey Bogart would call a beautiful relationship and we want 
  to continue this so that we all reach our goals I think what 
  technically needs to happen is.
Sharon Leu:   Is that.
Sharon Leu:  Open badge needs to show up in a wallet and it needs 
  to be understandable to people who are looking at it who may not 
  have the technical background so I'll leave that there and let 
  others way in what they think would be useful.
Kerri Lemoie:  I think you tried and actually I put myself in the 
  queue and also in response to this but also David's questions 
  which are great questions and Bonnie was saying is that as a 
  cohort we can dig into these questions and see what kind of what 
  we can agree upon together for these deliverables display is a 
  really big deal right we don't we can't really figure out we 
  don't have a common display for these credentials that makes it 
  hard for them to understand so I see that as one of the primary 
  goals of this first step what we're doing.
Kerri Lemoie:  And real quick though David can you put a link
Kerri Lemoie:  In the chat about the.
Kerri Lemoie:  Question that you are asking because there's a few 
  of them and I wasn't sure which link human.
Kerri Lemoie:  Deb you're next.
David Chadwick: 
<david_chadwick> This link does not work
Deb Everhart:  So first of all sorry my voice is not very good 
  from a cold but the there's all of these different critically 
  important layers of the technology they're happening under the 
  surface and so this community is getting that work done which is 
  super important I would say one of the one of the near-term 
  immediate goals in terms of introducing this topic to 
  non-technical audience.
Deb Everhart:   Audiences is.
David Chadwick: 
<david_chadwick> neither does this one
Deb Everhart:  Li literally being able to see it so in our work 
  with States and and governors and you know federal agencies these 
  are non-technical people who want to begin to understand this 
  concept and how it can be applicable for them and the people that 
  they helped to serve and Empower so just to be able to see for 
  example three different types of learning and.
Deb Everhart:   Skill credentials.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks, @David. Checking.
Deb Everhart:  Three different providers alongside an identity 
  credential in easy to view wallet is is you know really important 
  first step for that audience and then I can see a Next Step from 
  there being okay now you can picture this wall it let's put it in 
  a storyboard or several different story boards so that you can 
  see how a person is going to use this wallet across different 
  credential transaction.
Deb Everhart:   Ins over.
Deb Everhart:  And it doesn't need to be a complicated story poor 
  but then putting that into action and showing that that also is 
  real I think is would be the next step.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks I so I'd like to make a proposal to 
  Sharon and the group which is if we're going with.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  While it has to pick up a credential from just 
  one issue to the star I'd like to propose that we require that it 
  not be.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The issuer from the same company as the wallet 
  right so we need a little bit of cross-pollination either like 
  picked at random or agree upon beforehand but for example taking 
  the case of DC's wallet and issuer.
<kerri_lemoie> link for OBv3 development repo: 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Wallet to display a credential from the DC 
  issue or because that's all we've been testing on that's what 
  we've been deploying pilots on displaying credentials from other 
  issuers is straight year so I propose that is one of our 
Sharon Leu:  I think that's a great idea.
Deb Everhart: +1 Because it shows the collaboration
<deb_everhart> literally shows multiple providers side by side
Manu Sporny:  Yeah plus 1/2 what Dimitri just said that is 
  certainly the way that the DHS Silicon Valley Innovation program 
  interrupt fests work worked we initially had used chappie to move 
  things between the issuer and the wallet back to a verifier and 
  we tried to use different parties for the issuer and the wallet 
  in the verifier.
Manu Sporny:  For those of you have said that at seen the video 
  there's this big complex like in by n interoperability thing that 
  we did so it's certainly it's a very possible doable thing in 
  time I guess the the question I had you know kind of looking at 
  seeing that display is one of the things right I mean people need 
  to be able to see this do we know what that OB 30 credential is 
Manu Sporny:   The the test credential we're going.
Manu Sporny:  In what it looks like you know are we just going to 
  use and display image or are we planning on the digital wallet 
  doing kind of a rendering of the data what were the thoughts 
  there so if we've got an OB V 3o you know credential sitting in 
  the wallet what are the instructions to the wallet vendors to 
  render that in a way that's viewable.
Kerri Lemoie:  - I'm going to jump in on that question because 
  that's also a really great question and I think that is what 
  we're going to be working on at the wall providers and at bcig 
  together and trying to figure that out one thing to note is that 
  open badges you point out does not require a badge image so that 
  will be interesting to that's a brand-new thing and something 
  that'll be interesting to try out there are some basic required 
  fields and then we can add some other properties if you'd like 
  probably want to keep it very simple just a very very simple.
Kerri Lemoie:   Open badge.
<brandon_muramatsu> +q
Kerri Lemoie:  David you're back in the queue you're on the 
<phil_l_(p1)> Something other than a JSON-LD rendering of the 
  badge contents
<kerri_lemoie> We'll make sure the OBv3 context  is available.
<deb_everhart> I would recommend not the typical badge image, but 
  rather a simple display of the key data-- to make it clear these 
  are credentials beyond people's typical understanding of badges
<dmitri_zagidulin> @David - that can be the next phase!
<andy_miller> This is an example in the spec: 
Kerri Lemoie:  Sharon do you want to answer this question would 
  you like me to take a stab at it.
Sharon Leu:  Why don't you take a stab at this.
Kerri Lemoie:  I think Dimitri just sort of answered it in the in 
  the chat that that could be the next thing we do we also think 
  that's very important but we're really at this like Hello World 
  stage where we really just trying to get a open badge into a 
Kerri Lemoie:  Next McHugh is Nate out of.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): All right thanks let me know if my microphone 
  doesn't sound good these Bluetooth headphones are not right I 
  actually - one the maybe suggestion that we insist on issuer and 
  wallet provider being separate entities for this phase if we're 
  talking about baby steps we may find that there is a wallet 
  provider that wants to participate and you know they want to 
  focus most of their effort on building the display logic within 
  their wallet and maybe you know essentially we're just using an 
  example credential.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Nate - wait, an issuer interoping /with their 
  own wallet/ is going to happen anyway. how is that actual 
  interop? :)
Nate_Otto_(he/him): All blob of signed json-ld anyway so the 
  presence of a particular issuing software that is a separate 
  entity from them I don't think is absolutely critical to this 
  phase of the work certainly it's great when we can do it and I 
  encourage all participants to work with multiple entities you 
  know one representing issuer and one representing wallet for 
  interoperability but it may not make sense as a requirement and 
  then a in the future you know.
Nate_Otto_(he/him):  I would say that also to David's.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Around the number of issuers we've seen in 
  the open badges ecosystem so far that there are hundreds of 
  thousands of issuers in the world as well it's not a very limited 
  supply for every single individual credential of course there is 
  only the issuer that has defined it but for all of the 
  credentials in total there are many.
Kerri Lemoie:  And it is a follow-up Dimitri I make some point 
  here about I'm actually an issuer is dropping with their own 
  wallet then it's not really or issue from its own well it's not 
  really demonstrating interoperability if the wallet already knows 
  that if she were would you suggest the wallet with a cedar 
  another wallet.
Kerri Lemoie:   And something we could talk.
<manu_sporny> I wonder if there is a miscommunication... feels 
  like there is... can't put my finger on what it is just now.
Kerri Lemoie:  Nicole right later.
Kerri Lemoie:  Sorry did you want to try to answer that question 
  if that will move on to John Q code next.
John Kuo:  Okay actually I was going to say almost exactly the 
  same thing that made said so I will I will defer but I will add 
  just kind of add the comment that you know being able to cross 
  issue is is a great thing but it seems kind of like so I see 
  several you know use cases you know and I think that Sharon's 
  original scope you know the baby step of just us all using the 
  same schema.
John Kuo:   Is a really good one.
John Kuo:  You know fairly easily achievable you know I'm my head 
  is kind of exploding in trying to figure out like how we could 
  you know collaborate and it just increases the complexity of the 
  challenge by an order of magnitude if you're asking people to use 
  your wallet custom apis and everything else to be able to issue 
  the credential you know we'd have to document in or work with 
  bunch of things to be able to expose our services and all of.
John Kuo:   That I mean.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @John_Kuo - the whole point is that it 
  /shouldn't/ be a custom API
<deb_everhart> maybe there are multiple layers of scope- this is 
  a short timeframe and not all engaged parties will get to a 
  higher layer right now
<dmitri_zagidulin> we're using a standard API
<manu_sporny> agreed
<davidc> There is no single standard API
John Kuo:  Complicated but it is like just a lot more 
  orchestration involved in communicating with third parties rather 
  than just working within your own team so I would propose that we 
  do that but not for the initial you know I would think that we'd 
  want to do it next and then that's easier than the last one which 
  is probably moving VCS around from wallet wallet that's like to 
  me one of the hardest things to do because the interop specs are 
  varied and.
John Kuo:   You know.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @DavidC - so let's see which wallets support 
  which standard APIs
<manu_sporny> There is VC API and there is CHAPI -- and we have 
  seen interop using those two APIs (though early days, of course)
<davidc> OIDC4VCI is defining a standard protocol for issuing VCs
John Kuo:  I would agree with Nate or not represent but I also 
  agree with Dimitri that it's not really interrupt until we do 
  that but baby steps let's go back to what Sharon was trying to 
  emphasize let's just get the first baby step done and then we 
  could try to do another pass we're okay now everyone should 
  publish you know whatever services and documentation are needed 
  for other issuers to stick a VC in someone's wallet because then 
  there's all sorts of.
John Kuo:   Did stuff that has to happen I mean it's just much 
<deb_everhart> all providers should be able to articulate their 
  interop intentions and next steps
<davidc> I suspect OIDC4VCI will become the defacto standard
John Kuo:  So I think that's it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Hey son and there's some really good feedback that 
  we can talk about.
Kerri Lemoie:  And you're in the cute.
Brandon_Muramatsu: This is sort of on the same topic and maybe 
  it's not necessary based off what Dimitri and motto have been 
  saying in chat but the data request or the information request 
  that's included as part of Sharon's call focuses I read is 
  focusing on primarily the wallet I think that we need issuer and 
  the issuer and the wallet to be different entities are from 
Brandon_Muramatsu:  entities I may be able to.
Brandon_Muramatsu: Support the baby steps argument that that's 
  maybe the next step but I don't it's the interesting step to me 
  and if we go that route that I think there needs to be an 
  information request for the issuer's as well to provide 
  information to either information to the Sharon and jmf like 
  she's requested for the wallet or.
<david_chadwick> How many of you support the OIDC4VCI spec for 
  issuing VCs?
<phil_l_(p1)> It's true the interop is hard and complicated. But 
  the scope has been narrowed to just one other wallet than the 
  issuer may already have. So this is minimally requires a 
  different wallet than issuer.
Brandon_Muramatsu: Conversely jff needs to say these are the 
  things the issuers must do like informed to the VCA API and.
Brandon_Muramatsu: The other things that mono end up chappie that 
  mono and Demetria can talk about chat.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks Brendan also very good feedback Chad and do 
  you have any comments or when I'm taking notes about the feedback 
  right now.
<manu_sporny> We don't support OIDC4VCI at this moment -- too 
  green to implement, AFAICT.
<manu_sporny> We can support CHAPI and VC API
Sharon Leu:  I'm only going to give a quick comment to that 
  Brandon I think that brings up an excellent point which is like 
  we haven't okay so I see that there's some discussion going on 
  about whether it's like BC apis Etc I think that to your point 
  like yes the issuer we would need to very clearly State up front 
  what is who is the issuer and what are all of the things that the 
  issuer will do and what does that look like from like a like a 
  format perspective I imagined that we would bring like once we.
Sharon Leu:   Like I think that our first step was deciding that 
  this was the.
Sharon Leu:  That this is what the group would do and as once we 
  finalize who is in this initial cohort we will get together with 
  that cohort as well as you know we will work on finding the 
  issuer and having that settled and then work on this problem all 
  together because I think there are a number of issues that are 
  technical that need to be resolved not resolved in a way that you 
  will now henceforth and forevermore do it like this for your 
  product but that as a group for the purposes of this small.
Sharon Leu:   Ation these are the minimum set of specifications 
  that we would we.
Sharon Leu:  Need to do and so that is what we would like to do 
  together as a cohort and then I will say one quick thing and let 
  Kari say more about what this looks like but this is also meant 
  to be a learning activity for all of us I think in this community 
  this has not been tried before it certainly and away for a lot of 
  information to come out about what works and what not it does not 
  in this particular context and we would like to make sure that we 
  continue to work in the open so Carrie would you like to.
Sharon Leu:   Like I know you have a couple of thoughts about 
Kerri Lemoie:  Nancy you said that perfectly but to sort of 
  reiterate this that point about us learning together that is what 
  this group is doing that's part of the charter of EC edu is for 
  us to learn and move things forward together so this isn't 
  necessarily about each specific product but all of us trying to 
  move the needle ahead right push it all ahead for everybody.
<simone_ravaioli_(digitary)> Should there be a call out to 
  issuers or we just define one dumb “hello world”OB3 and use that 
  to be displayed by any numbers of wallet providers ?
Manu Sporny:  Let's see this is kind of going back to the display 
  you know the question of display still a bit stuck on that I 
  wanted to suggest something so the easiest thing for us to do to 
  to kind of display is a PNG image so if the badge has an image we 
  can just kind of display that ideally if what we're trying to do 
  is tell a story to the.
Manu Sporny:   The the larger end.
Manu Sporny:  Hurry and get the display so it looks the same in 
  all the wall it's what we've found out is that sometimes when a 
  credential looks different in two different wallets people get 
  kind of unnerved by it which is a bit weird right because people 
  kind of view you know when they're used to their experience with 
  like their apple wallet they don't freak out when Microsoft or 
  Google decides to displayed in different way in their wallet 
Manu Sporny:   But when we're in storytelling.
Manu Sporny:  Mode showing two different wallet showing the same 
  kind of rendering of a badge might be something that we want to 
  optimize for in the beginning it's also very easy to implement 
  showing an image I did want to point out though so that's the 
  baby step the longer path though is that we are expecting digital 
  bazaars expecting that we're going to propose a display 
  characteristic for the credential that allows you.
<deb_everhart> I think that's part of what people need to 
  understand, that the underlying data is reliably the same 
  regardless of the display
Manu Sporny:  Play hints so it can be an image it can be a static 
  image or it can you can specify key fields that you would like to 
  have rendered so the wallet can use those key fields and make 
  sure that it renders those before the other ones and then we get 
  more and more dense so we can provide SVG templates where you can 
  render badge data into an SVG template you can include that 
  template in the credential all the way up to.
Manu Sporny:   Having you know a web component so all these.
<deb_everhart> imo this is an important turning point for Open 
  Badges to be literally seen differently, not focus on the badge 
John Kuo: +1
Manu Sporny:  That there's a very rich landscape of things that 
  are going to take ears to to Really standardize but my suggestion 
  here for the first iteration is you know can we agree to just 
  show picture like an image and then upgrade that to more Dynamic 
  displays you know as the weeks and months roll on that's it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Manu.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks I saw I wanted to respond to two 
  comments one about custom all the protocols that John mentioned 
  and one I want to respond to Mono so I think it's important to 
  highlight John I agree with you that getting all the wallet or 
  all issuers to publicize their own custom protocols and interop 
  is too hard of an Ask fortunately the whole point of the problem 
  of the second size though is to demonstrate.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Support for.
<brandon_muramatsu> I would argue for display of fields and not 
  baking the info into a single image, both could be supported (and 
  probably should be), but I think we want to be able to operate on 
  the data
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Standards or emerging standard protocols right 
  so we do not want custom issuer apis or custom wallet apis we 
  want to demonstrate the interop for the agreed-upon ones in terms 
  of in terms of the display model I'm glad you mentioned one of 
  the things I was going to mention next is that VC Edge you in the 
  coming in the coming weeks is also going to be exploring 
  specifying a display.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Again for either hints or deterministic 
  display between credentials because sorry between wallets because 
  that's definitely a pain point we're running into amongst 
  education wallets so if the VC working group or the ccgs going to 
  be working on that as well I think we should obviously 
  collaborate in terms of the whether to require the PNG or not I 
  would vote that we don't require it that we.
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Because as.
<deb_everhart> the vast majority of the market still thinks about 
  Open Badges as tokens/display images and they don't know there's 
  critically important underlying data
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Others pointed out in the chat the one of the 
  Innovations of open badges version 3 is that it doesn't require a 
  static baked image that it that it allows while it's a little 
  more flexibility so I think the displaying the PNG should be 
  optional I agree that we're trying to not alarm viewers but for 
  this first step while it should have.
<deb_everhart> we might need a little alarm
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Should be able to have a choice in what they 
<deb_everhart> for people to think differently
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks Dimitri we only have five minutes left I 
  want to give Sharon a couple of minutes to a close things so I'm 
  going to take questions from Nate Otto, David, and 
  Mutuzo_Irene_Esther I'm wrong I'm like Medusa so Nate you have 
  the queue.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Choice sure just very briefly a Sharon 
  suggested a mechanism for the cohort to decide on you know what 
  specific nitty-gritty things are required once you kind of sign 
  up and get involved in the program and display agreements is kind 
  of exactly the type of thing that it makes sense for that I think 
  it'll be really easy to be able to select a certain set of fields 
  that are important that represent kind of the core of the badge 
  itself such as its name maybe the description.
Nate_Otto_(he/him):  and then if you.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Exist in the badge I think it should be 
  displayed badges for a long time have been visual symbols of 
  achievement and just because they are now optional in the spec 
  doesn't mean that we don't want to see them very prominently when 
  they exist so I think it'll be really easy for the cohort members 
  themselves to decide on what should be displayed and if we get a 
  little bit of variation that's probably okay.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks Nate David.
<deb_everhart> I would consider that a secondary 
Kerri Lemoie:  That's really interesting David and in the kind of 
  thing that we really want to be able to work out in the space 
  thank you for mentioning it.
Kerri Lemoie:  And lastly we have I'm sorry to say your name 
  wrong correct me if you like I'm going to do so.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @DavidC - yeah, that's a hugely important use 
  case. (for the issuer to be able to suggest or dictate the 
<dmitri_zagidulin> (though not for this first interop fest)
<phil_l_(p1)> @David so that means for this plugfest it will be 
  easier to display data than your licensing professional org.
Mutuzo_Irene_Esther: You could just call me Irene yes my comments 
  are yes one around the visualization of the credential 
  particularly for the African Market that's something you the the 
  team that's working on this might want to also think about 
  because it's not so much around in stages at em around you know 
  that enter information in the credential so also linking that.
Mutuzo_Irene_Esther: So that we are able to get.
<deb_everhart> see the way Velocity Network has agreed upon 
  primary and secondary schemas and display options-- primary is 
  the same for all credentials and secondary meets the use cases of 
  specific communities of practice
Mutuzo_Irene_Esther: African perspective then my question is 
  around quickly of course once the team works on this I asked him 
  that they'll probably be certain people that are going to test 
  this out and try it out how we thought deliberately thought about 
  the sensitization on this cuz that's all okay.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you I am so it's a good question and we'll I 
  will keep that in the notes to sharing the of a couple minutes if 
  you want to say a few things to close us out.
<sharon_leu> sleu@jff.org
Sharon Leu:  I just need 10 seconds so if people want to discuss 
  other things my 10 seconds was a here I'm typing in my email in 
  the chat send me an email if you would like to join the cohort by 
  this Friday and we will get a call with everyone who has 
  participated to start this conversation about the particular 
  protocols and display and all of the other things that we need to 
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you are we can also start discussions in the 
  VC edu mailing list which is public you can put it in the chat 
  for you right now you see thank you actually I will send an email 
  out typing it in wrong but we can start the discussions there and 
  and ask all the questions really just put them in here we can 
  have a discussions and keep this going in that thread as well as 
  we get started.
Kerri Lemoie:  Hey we're pretty much at the hour so thank you 
  Sharon pretty much for getting this kicked off and thank you all 
  of you for your excellent questions and then let's see what I 
  look great stuff we can do here together.
<deb_everhart> super rich discussion, looking forward to 
<sharon_leu> This is great, thanks!
Phil_L_(P1): Thanks Carrie and Sharon terrific stuff.
Manu Sporny: +1 Thank you!
<taylor> Yaas! Thanks Sharon :)
Received on Monday, 9 May 2022 19:19:44 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Monday, 9 May 2022 19:19:45 UTC