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Minutes from Sept 16 Teleconference

From: ashok malhotra <ashok.malhotra@oracle.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 08:09:22 -0700
Message-ID: <4C9384A2.7050406@oracle.com>
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
  Are available at : http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes.html

and in text form below:

                              - DRAFT -

               Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

16 Sept 2010

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0024.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-tagmem-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Larry, Noah, Jonathan, Ashok, Henry, John_Kemp, Yves

    Regrets
           DanA, TimBL

    Chair
           Noah

    Scribe
           masinter, Ashok

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]agenda
          2. [6]scheduling meetings
          3. [7]approval of minutes
          4. [8]administrative items
          5. [9]Metadata Architecture
          6. [10]Generic fragment id processing
          7. [11]AWWW and the Web interaction model
          8. [12]MIME and the Web
          9. [13]Pending Review Actions
      * [14]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot>  Date: 16 September 2010

    <noah>  scribenick: masinter

    <noah>  meeting: TAG Teleconference of 16 Sept 2010

    <noah>  agenda: [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-agenda

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-agenda

agenda

    Larry talking about getting brief "MIME and the web" on today's
    agenda just to set directions

scheduling meetings

    ashok won't be on some telcons (missed which ones)

    noah wants people to get some writing done

approval of minutes

    <Ashok>  I will miss the next 3 telcons ... next telcon I can attend
    is Oct 14

    <noah>  Minutes of Sept 2.:
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/02-minutes

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/02-minutes

    <johnk>  +1 also

    resolution: minutes of Sept 2 approved

administrative items

    noah: F2F coming up

    <ht_home>  I am coming

    <jar>  I'm planning on it

    Larry, Ashok, Jonathan will be there

    <johnk>  I can't say yet, but *should* be there

    noah: Contact from Mark Nottingham (IETF liaison to W3C), suggesting
    that Alexey M. IETF application area director is planning on being
    at TPAC, suggested possible meeting with TAG
    ... suggest responding to MNot suggesting meeting at TPAC on
    Thursday

    <noah>  YL: I can take the action

    <noah>  ACTION: Noah to respond positively to Mark Nottingham
    regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action01]

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action01

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-463 - Respond positively to Mark
    Nottingham regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC [on Noah Mendelsohn
    - due 2010-09-23].

    <ht_home>  I will, unfortunately, now not going to be in Lyon at all

    <jar>  I won't be in Lyon either

    <noah>  ACTION: Yves to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at
    TPAC [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action02]

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action02

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-464 - Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF
    meeting at TPAC [on Yves Lafon - due 2010-09-23].

    <noah>  ACTION-464 due: 2010-10-23

    <noah>  ACTION-464: due 2010-10-23

    <trackbot>  ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC
    notes added

    <jar>  ACTION-464 due 2010-10-23

    <trackbot>  ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC
    due date now 2010-10-23

    <noah>  scribenick: Ashok

    Noah: We need to do some writing. Will talk to people one-on-one

Metadata Architecture

    <noah>
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0016.html

      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0016.html

    Noah: Jonathan would like to pass this on to someone else

    jar: I cannot think about anything non-trivial to say ...

    <jar>  masinter: survey what w3c is doing?

    Larry: Can we survey what W3C does about metadata and problems
    thereon

    Noah: Should we follow the links from the action

    jar: I cannot do this ... would be better if we got some fresh eyes
    looking at it
    ... or postpone to January

    Noah: We could close it but wait till Tim is around
    ... or someone follow the links

    <jar>  agenda: [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-agenda

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-agenda

    <noah>  Take a look at email:
    [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0028.html

      [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0028.html

    <noah>  Tracker, this discussion is about ACTION-282

    Ashok: That's about metadata access ... this issue is about metadata
    architecture

    <noah>  I think Larry is proposing: "Draft a finding on which
    metadata technologies (RDFa, photo EXIF, etc.) do I use when?"

    <noah>  Maybe we should retitle the action?

    Larry: People don't know how to write metadata ... lots of confusion

    <jar>  masinter: A success criterion for this activity. RDFa,
    microdata, XIF, XMP, GPS, privacy policy. People are confused about
    what to use when. It's a confusing mess. What happens when they
    conflict? When I want to change it? Operational issues among W3C and
    other specs.

    <noah>  NM: I think we also discovered that the advice in
    [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0028.html is
    misleading; ACTION-282 is mostly NOT about metadata access.

      [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0028.html

    <noah>  LM: I'd like an architecture which is a framework into which
    these specific mechanisms can be placed.

    Larry: We need a framework into which these mechanisms can fit

    jar: That matches my memory of how this came up

    <noah>  jar: F2F discussion would be good...we're ready

    jar: Perhaps duscuss at f2f

    Larry: Perhaps create an outline

    noah: I can put on an agenda

    Larry: May be good to have a reading list
    ... I will send mail

    <noah>  . ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, which
    metadata mechanisms to use when. Get reading list from Larry and
    www-tag.

    <noah>  ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, "which
    metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and
    www-tag. [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action03]

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action03

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-465 - Schedule discussion of ACTION-282,
    "which metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry
    and www-tag. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].

Generic fragment id processing

    Noah: There is inconsistency in 3023bis and frag-id processing for
    RDF+XML
    ... disagreement about what should be done
    ... TAG recommended that 3023bis back off but we got strong pushback
    saying that generic processing was desirable

    <noah>  Larry's email:
    [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Aug/0034.html

      [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Aug/0034.html

    Larry: Is there usecase for putting XPointer in the frag-id?

    Noah: Recaps the generic processing argument

    Yves: Issue is not have XPointer supported but all media types must
    have a syntax compatible with XPointer

    <noah>  Martin Duerst's Note:
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0022.html

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0022.html

    <noah>  Roy Fielding's note:
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0021.html

      [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0021.html

    <noah>  Norm Walsh's note:
    [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0020.html

      [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jul/0020.html

    <noah>  Norm writes:

    <noah>  >>  I find that unsatisfactory. It leaves generic XML
    processors out in

    <noah>  >>  the cold once again by expecting them to be aware of all
    of the media

    <noah>  >>  type registrations for all +xml formats.

    Henry: By using +xml they buy into XML and thus folks expect XML
    processing

    <Zakim>  noah, you wanted to go back to talking about conneg

    Noah: So, people can read different documents and process the
    content differently

    Larry: You want frag-id processing be generic

    <jar>  ht, noah: the URIref 'identifies' one thing when the processor
    has read the rdf+xml spec, a different thing when it reads 3023bis.
    maybe that's ok?

    <jar>  ... a single document, same media type in both cases

    <jar>  masinter: I want to push back on Norm's and Roy's use cases

    Larry: I want to push back on their usecases ... don't understand
    why frag-id processing has to be generic

    <noah>  HT: XSL stylesheets that format rdf+xml

    <jar>  I don't buy that one. It would be meaningless (almost always)
    in the RDF interpretation

    <ht_home>  Note that XInclude is _not_ an example, because it does
    not allow the use of FragIDs

    Larry: I will ask Norm or Roy for concrete example

    <noah>  ACTION: Larry to ask Norm, Roy and Martin for concrete use
    cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important
    [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action04]

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action04

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-466 - Ask Norm, Roy and Martin for
    concrete use cases where generic processing of fragment ids is
    important [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-09-23].

    <ht_home>  jar, the example I have in mind preserves the RDF
    semantics but restructures the RDF XML

    <jar>  grumph. need details.

AWWW and the Web interaction model

    <noah>  ACTION-355?

    <trackbot>  ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which
    AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web
    Applications -- due 2010-06-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW

    <trackbot>  [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355

    <noah>  John did some writing:
    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0034.html

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Jun/0034.html

    Discussion of John's document

    <noah>  AWWW section on "Interaction":
    [31]http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#interaction

      [31] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#interaction

    Noah: AWWW slices into 3 themes, identification, interaction, data
    formats

    John: How does client know it can use a particular URI ...
    client/server agreement
    ... update of state w/o user interaction e.g. web sockets
    ... need to define 'user agent' ... may be more than a browser
    ... acts on behalf of server also

    Larry: Web apps break our model of knowledge ... downloaded code
    knows stuff client does not know
    ... client runs downloaded code on behalf of server

    <noah>  Larry: what's interesting is the client is executing code not
    (just) on behalf of the client, but rather downloading code that
    acts on behalf of the server

    <noah>  I think that's a really useful way to put it.

    John: Clients act like servers and servers like clients

    Larry: Client has to know security boundaries not the semantics

    Noah: John, can you write a document ... maybe a sketch

    John: Yes

    <noah>  LM: Be careful about terminology about "client", "server" and
    "knowing"

    <noah>  What I asked John to do was an early draft of either an
    updated version of [32]http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#interaction, or
    else perhaps a finding that would be the start of a complementary
    section in some TAG publication.

      [32] http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#interaction

    Larry: ... only need URIs for states you need to come back to

    <noah>  AM: Larry, you commented on my writeup saying that, and I
    agree with you. Raman came back and pushed back, but I've forgotten
    what his point was.

    <noah>  AM: Do you know?

    <noah>  LM: No.

MIME and the Web

    Larry: I wrote a blog post on use of MIME and how it could be
    aligned better with Web Architecture.
    ... suggested some improvements to MIME registry

    <noah>  LM: Thinking of splitting into two documents.

    Larry: may be easier to get agreement on status and history than the
    improvements

    <noah>  We are discussing:
    [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0027.html

      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Sep/0027.html

    <noah>  LM: Also might relate to versioning issues

    Larry: also about sniffing
    ... probably separate versions from variants
    ... finally about distrbuted extensibility
    ... I want to bring learning from other MIME types to HTML
    ... Pehaps descriptive expositions of what has happened

    Noah: Can you do some work on this

    Larry: I will have another document in a week

    <noah>  ACTION: Larry to revise Mime&  Web blog entry, perhaps
    leading to Internet Draft [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action05]

      [34] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action05

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-467 - Revise Mime&  Web blog entry,
    perhaps leading to Internet Draft [on Larry Masinter - due
    2010-09-23].

    <noah>
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview

Pending Review Actions

    [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview

      [36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview

    <noah>  NM: I've closed ACTION-322

    <noah>  ACTION-322?

    <trackbot>  ACTION-322 -- Jonathan Rees to brief Science Commons
    counsel re forbidding hyperlinking -- due 2010-08-20 -- CLOSED

    <trackbot>  [37]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/322

      [37] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/322

    <noah>  ACTION: Noah to invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be
    available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action06]

      [38] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action06

    <trackbot>  Created ACTION-468 - Invite Thinh to telcon where Tim
    will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" [on Noah
    Mendelsohn - due 2010-09-23].

    <noah>  ACTION-468?

    <trackbot>  ACTION-468 -- Noah Mendelsohn to invite Thinh to telcon
    where Tim will be available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking"
    -- due 2010-09-23 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>  [39]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/468

      [39] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/468

    <noah>  ACTION-355?

    <trackbot>  ACTION-355 -- John Kemp to explore the degree to which
    AWWW and associated findings tell the interaction story for Web
    Applications -- due 2010-10-05 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>  [40]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355

      [40] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/355

    <noah>  [41]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue

      [41] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue

    Adjourned

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Larry to ask Norm, Roy and Martin for concrete use
    cases where generic processing of fragment ids is important
    [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Larry to revise Mime&  Web blog entry, perhaps leading
    to Internet Draft [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action05]
    [NEW] ACTION: Noah to invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be
    available to discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action06]
    [NEW] ACTION: Noah to respond positively to Mark Nottingham
    regarding meeting with Alexey at TPAC [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of ACTION-282, "which
    metadata mechanisms to use when". Get reading list from Larry and
    www-tag. [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Yves to coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC
    [recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/09/16-minutes#action02]


-- 
All the best, Ashok
Received on Friday, 17 September 2010 15:12:24 UTC

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