- From: Ian B. Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 18:45:05 -0400
- To: www-tag@w3.org
Hello,
Minutes from the 1 July 2002 TAG teleconf are available
at HTML [1] and text below.
- Ian
[1] http://www.w3.org/2002/07/01-tag-summary
--
Ian Jacobs (ij@w3.org) http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
Tel: +1 718 260-9447
===========================================================
W3C | TAG | Previous: 24 Jun | Next: 8 July
Minutes for 1 July 2002 TAG teleconference
Nearby: Teleconference details · issues list · www-tag
archive
1. Administrative (15min)
1. Confirm scribe: IJ
2. Roll call: TBL, CL, SW, RF, IJ. Regrets: DO, PC,
TB, NW, DC
3. Accept this agenda
4. Next meeting: 8 July. Regrets: TBL
5. Accepted 24 June minutes
6. Confirmed status of completed actions
1.2 Completed actions?
1. IJ: Ask TBL to take ownership of issue
xlinkScope-23. Done. Refer to TimBL proposal for
when to use XLink.
2. IJ: Ask SW to send a thank-you to the XMLP WG
regarding SOAP/GET. See their email to TAG
regarding MIME types.
3. IJ: Ask SW to write thank-you to XMLP WG. See
Stuart's email to XMLP WG Chair.
2. Technical
1. Review SOAP in last call?
2. xlinkScope-23
3. Arch Document / httpRange-14
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2.1 Review SOAP in last call?
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SW: The XMLP WG has asked the TAG whether they will
review the SOAP 1.0 specification in last call.
RF, SW: SOAP 1.2 is not sufficiently architectural in
scope (in the way the CharMod spec was).
Resolved: The TAG does not intend to commit to a
complete review of the last call document. The XMLP WG
should indicate whether there is a particular issue
having architectural scope they want us to look at.
Action SW: Respond to XMLP WG on behalf of TAG.
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2.2 xlinkScope-23
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Proposal from TBL. In particular, "You should use xlink
whenever your application is one of hypertext linking,
as xlink functionality such as power to control user
interface behavior on link traversal is useful and
should be implemented in a standard way to allow
interoperability."
[Chris]
I agree with him about that use of hypertext
links
[Ian]
RF: I never understood why xlink:href existed. I
just use "href" myself.
[Chris]
I am totally amazed at people claiming that
human-understandable terms mean something for
attribute values
You cannot assume that class, id, href etc
happen to mean something!!
href *in the xlink namespace* yes
[Ian]
RF: In the actual documents used by people
across a wide range of XML, "href" is
consistently used to contain a URI or URI
reference." So putting "xlink:href", while it
makes us semantically clean in terms of the XML
Processing model, the reality is that it doesn't
make any difference.
SW: In order for a language to make use of
xlink:href, what does it have to import?
CL: You must declare xlink namspace and use
namespace mechanism.
[TimBL]
<thermostat cref="19C" href="37C"/>
[Chris]
Classic example.
[Roy]
Stupid example. Try using that in practice and
users will be upset.
[Chris]
As a concrete example - take an svg file, and
declare the "xlink" prefix to a different URL
not the XLink one. Your links stops working/
wheras if you declare xmlns:toto fr the XLink
namespace URI, it works of course
[Ian]
TBL: If you aren't mixing languages, a namespace
defines both syntax and semantics. When you
dereference a namespace identifiers, you only
get the syntactic bit back.
[Chris]
It's like assuming that an attribute called id
is of type ID. It isn't.
[Ian]
TBL: When you mix namespaces, it works with RDF
but not XML.
[Chris]
<suit style="double breasted:/>
<social class="proletariat"/>
[Ian]
TBL: With namespaces, if attribute name is not
namespace qualified, the attribute is in the
element partition on that namespace.
SW: The meaning is scoped by the element that
contains it.
CL: And if you find same (unqualified) attrib
name on another element, can't say anything
about relationship to other (unqualified) attrib
name.
RF: I understand the theory, but the practice is
that meaning is how it's used.
TBL: Is there software that looks a "href" in
generic XML and assumes the value is a URI?
RF: I don't know.
[Chris]
Thats an interesting question, does the element
partition have any effect on a namespace
qualified name
[Ian]
RF: I think xlink is not limited to hypertext
references; it defines relationships in general.
TBL: some questions: (1) Should you bother to
use xlink:href, or just invent your own href?
(2) If you use a reference but not a hypertext
reference, should you use xlink:href?
IJ: Raises the question of the definition of
"link" (part of the architecture document). I
think link will not be a useful term; context is
everything. Too many types of links.
TBL: When we observe that we need the term
"link", then we can consider using it.
CL: I think there is a need to identify things
that are links: associations that make something
part of a whole. There are cases when URIs are
just use as disambiguating ids, and these aren't
really links. Ultimately the question is whether
W3C puts itself behind XLink (for XML grammars).
SW: This is a piece of the mixed language issue.
CL: Yes, you need to do actual web pages, not
just backend stuff.
TBL: In the XML Signature world: Take a piece of
content, sign it, transmit it, and unsign in
another context - this is a function of the
target specification. With RDF, you can write
down the rules of what happens when you mix
statements (meaning of each statement is
defined). So within XML, we can't do anything
generic. We can talk about special domains
(e.g., 2 dimensional graphical rendering and how
to mix XHTML, MathML, etc.).
No resolution.
------------------------------------------
2.3 Architecture document / httpRange-14
------------------------------------------
Resolved: Publish 1 July draft of arch document.
Action IJ: Publish, asking in particular for input on
issue httpRange-14.
1. ACTION IJ 2002/03/18: Integrate/combine one-page
summaries (Revised 1 July)
2. ACTION TBL 2002/05/05: Negotiate more of IJ time
for arch doc
3. ACTION RF 2002/06/24: Write a paragraph on
technical and political aspects of URIs and URI
References.
[Ian]
Disagreement over "According to [RFC2396] a
resource is "anything that has identity." A
resource is part of the Web when there is a URI
that identifies it."
TBL: Should be URI Reference. Otherwise you
can't refer to some resources.
RF: We are digging a hole for ourselves by
saying that abs URis with frag ids define a new
space.
RF: URIs point to resources; frag ids are
client-side indirect references.
TBL: In RDF, there's another indirection - the
frag id is not part of a resource but is about
the thing described by the RDF. I have said many
times that the phrase "fragment identifier" is a
mistake. The meaning is completely
language-dependent.
IJ: Are there two self-consistent models here?
Which one has advantages?
TBL: Yes, I think you could produce two
consistent models.
SW: Seem to be two concepts - identification
(speak about it) and dereferencing (get it). Are
we conflating those two notions? Would ad-hoc
time on the phone help?
------------------------------------------
3. Postponed
------------------------------------------
1. httpRange-14: Need to make progress here to advance
in Arch Document.
2. Internet Media Type registration, consistency of
use
1. ACTION DC: research the bug in the svg
diagram. There are two votes to remove the
diagram (DC and TB).
2. ACTION NW 2002/06/24: Produce PNG version of
image as well.
3. uriMediaType-9: Status of negotiation with IETF?
See message from DanC.
TBL: Now there is an RFC for URNs. Sounds like IETF
is moving towards URNs and aren't interested in
using URIs for media types
4. Qnames as identifiers
1. Action NW 2002/06/24: Follow up on Rick
Jelliffe comments/proposal.
5. Consistency of Formatting Property Names, Values,
and Semantics
1. Status of discussion about this finding?
6. Status of URIEquivalence-15. Relation to Character
Model of the Web (chapter 4)? See text from TimBL
on URI canonicalization and email from Martin in
particular.
7. RFC3023Charset-21
+ ACTION CL 2002/6/03: Write up the issue in the
next day or so. Done (tag only)
8. Status of discussions with WSA WG about
SOAP/WSDL/GET/Query strings?
+ ACTION DC 2002/06/10: Send note to WSA WG
expressing concern about normative binding for
GET.
+ ACTION DO 2002/06/24: Contact WSDL WG about
this issue (bindings, query strings and
schemas) to ensure that it's on their radar.
See discussions from 24 Jun TAG teleconf.
+ Have we closed issue whenToUseGet-7
9. If we get here: namespaceDocument-8
10. augmentedInfoset-22
1. ACTION DC 2002/06/17: Talk to XML Schema WG
about PSVI. Report to tag, who expects to
decide whether to add as an issue next week.
Done (email to Schema WG).
3.1 New issues?
1. Bad practice: Overriding HTTP content-type with a
URI reference.See email from TBL.
__________________________________________________
Ian Jacobs, for TimBL
Last modified: $Date: 2002/07/01 22:34:28 $
Received on Monday, 1 July 2002 18:47:56 UTC