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Re: [css-ruby] ruby-position on 2 line subtitles/captions

From: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 15:40:59 +0900
Message-ID: <CAN9ydbWctUkJCUqTT63-1TCZnY2kfN3rVu2fV6Q0kW3DJUGapQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
Cc: Xidorn Quan <quanxunzhen@gmail.com>, W3C Style <www-style@w3.org>, CJK discussion <public-i18n-cjk@w3.org>
I put this onto the wiki[1].

Naming of the value looks fine, and I support the use case. However,
it looks like we don't receive interests to implement in UA at this
point, and I18N WG expressed they wish to keep the Level 1 as minimum
as possible.

As long as we don't see strong objections to the naming, and as long
as TTML/WebVTT uses some translation rules to render in UA, As Xidorn
pointed out, they should be ok to translate the 'outside' value to a
CSS selector.

Glenn, one more thing you may want to checkout is whether
text-emphasis-position has the same issue or not. I suspect it does, I
remember seeing such in movies, but your people must know it better.

[1] https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css-ruby-2

/koji

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 2:20 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So TTML doesn't use UAs to render?
>
>
> Both TTML and WebVTT assume that some entity, e.g., server, client side
> scripting, or embedded UA functionality, will either translate to an
> available directly supported renderable form, e.g., HTML+CSS, SVG+CSS, etc.,
> or will render directly. Consequently, there is generally an attempt made to
> choose an expression that can be readily translated into an {HTML/SVG}+CSS
> equivalent that preserves the intended presentation semantics.
>
>>
>> JLREQ clearly states that its
>> coverage is limited to regular books such as novels, so I'm not
>> surprised it's not in there, but no motivations/use cases in Web nor
>> UA engines concerns me a bit to define it.
>
>
> That is a good point to make, because many folks perceive JLREQ as
> articulating a wider range of requirements. It is a good reminder that it
> does not, and that we should not *solely* rely on JLREQ to define all
> requirements, but need to look elsewhere as well.
>
> The semantics I am discussing here is outside of the explicit JLREQ scope,
> but remains a real world requirement. So the group will need to weigh how to
> proceed.
>
>>
>>
>> Maybe we should create a wiki page for CSS Ruby Level 2 and put it
>> there, unless Xidorn or any implementers wish to implement. Does that
>> work?
>>
>> /koji
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> As I see it in almost every movie I watch, and in every Karaoke too,
>> >> I've been wondering why there were no requests so far.
>> >>
>> >> Naming wise, 'outside' looks a good candidate to me. Other candidates
>> >> we tried for the text-align property was 'first-last' or 'first last'.
>> >> It was removed for other reasons but there were a few concerns on the
>> >> naming during the review, so they might not be good candidates.
>> >>
>> >> Are you just asking naming ideas that fits well to CSS,
>> >
>> >
>> > If someone has a better name than 'outside', I'm sure we could use it
>> > with
>> > TTML.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> or also asking
>> >> as a possible addition of this value to CSS Ruby?
>> >
>> >
>> > Since this is a real requirement that isn't discussed by JLREQ and isn't
>> > addressed by the current css-ruby draft, it seems natural that such a
>> > value
>> > should be added. It may also help when TTML is translated to HTML/CSS
>> > for
>> > rendering.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> /koji
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sun, Dec 14, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Xidorn Quan <quanxunzhen@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:05 AM, Glenn Adams <glenn@skynav.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Recent work on supporting deployed Japanese Subtitling/Captions in
>> >> >>> TTML
>> >> >>> indicates a requirement to support ruby positioning on 2 line
>> >> >>> subtitles/captions where the first line uses right/above (before)
>> >> >>> and
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> second line uses left/below (after). We have addressed this in TTML
>> >> >>> by
>> >> >>> introducing an 'outside' keyword, which is interpreted as 'before'
>> >> >>> for
>> >> >>> lines
>> >> >>> 1 through N-1 and 'after' for the Nth (last) line.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I guess it would make more sense to combine ::first-line with
>> >> >> ruby-position than to define a new value. It would have different
>> >> >> behavior
>> >> >> from what you defined here when there are more than two lines, but I
>> >> >> wonder
>> >> >> if either way gives an ideal result in that case.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > TTML doesn't have selectors, so that option isn't available there.
>> >> > Even
>> >> > if
>> >> > it were available, it doesn't seem quite proper to distribute the
>> >> > semantics
>> >> > of positioning in that fashion, i.e., to rely upon first line
>> >> > overrides.
>> >> > But, yes, that remains an option with CSS.
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Xidorn
Received on Sunday, 11 January 2015 06:41:27 UTC

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