- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 01:28:46 -0700
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Shapes and Regions ------------------ - RESOLVED: Conditional agreement on taking Shapes to LC; will give final yay/nay at telcon in two weeks. - Mihai Balan to become test owner for Regions. Transforms ---------- Discussed possible syntaxes additions for making transform lists easier to interpolate. One idea discussed was using commas to group transforms. This had a number of disadvantages, one of which is incompatibility with SVG syntax. Another idea was introducing a null transform, which would be compatible with all transforms, to use as a placeholder in a list. No conclusions, and no changes to this level. There was also a brief diversion into the idea of editing only one segment of a list-valued property. ====== Full minutes below ====== Shapes ------ astearns: Shapes draft had a resolution a bit ago that was ??? with exclusions. astearns: It now only has shape-outside on floats. astearns: Since that WD, I've resolved all the issues. astearns: I was thinking of a WD and asking for more review, but people have pointed out that this usually means you go to LC. astearns: So I'm requesting to do so. ChrisL: Do you have a list of issues you resolved astearns: I have a change list from last draft. astearns: All of the issues were tracked in bugzilla. ChrisL: Ah, yes, that's what I wanted to know. ChrisL: Are there tests? ChrisL: That's something we ask during the LC meeting. astearns: We have 31 tests. astearns: I expect many more. ChrisL: Cool. That's a start. fantasai: It would be good to have the WG review it deeply, so he doesn't have to track those as LC issues. glazou: I think it's pointless - they've tracked a bunch of issues so far, and resolved them well. fantasai: Right, it's just a question of if they want to do multiple WDs, or multiple LCs. szilles: I still have more issues to bring up on the list. chrisl: Do you already have an ED? astearns: Yes. ChrisL: So you're really asking if you can go to LC in 1-2 weeks? astearns: Yeah. ChrisL: So we can resolve that. plinss: Let's call it 2 weeks. astearns: So we decide on publishing LC at the next telcon? glazou: Yeah, Sep 25. howcome: If you have a floated image, can you get shape-outside from itself? howcome: can I extract a shape from an image? astearns: yes, using an alpha channel threshold howcome: I'd rather use luminance astearns: maybe in level 2 astearns: My strategy is that level 2 will have something for that. Right now it's just an <image> value. In the future, you can use the element() function. howcome: That's an answer, yes. Not the one I want, but... fantasai: You can use attr(src url). <Bert> shape-outside: image(filter(url(foo.jpg), make-white-transparent)); shape-image-threshold: 0.5; glazou: So, conditional agreement on LC, with two weeks review? <glazou> YES <ChrisL> (no objections) RESOLVED: Conditional agreement on taking Shapes to LC; will give final yay/nay at telcon in two weeks. Test Owners ----------- astearns: Mihai is going to be the joint test owner for Regions. <michou> Mihai Balan would be me :) astearns: I think we should have test coordinators for more specs. TabAtkins: Yeah, we've said that before. ^_^ CSS Transforms Interpolation ---------------------------- ScribeNick: fantasai TabAtkins: Transforms interpolation sucks right now, have a suggestion to make it better TabAtkins: WebKit has a suggestion of how to improve it in a back-compat way as well TabAtkins: Here's an example of badly-interpolated transform transform: translate(100px) rotate(45deg); transform: scale(2) translateX(200px) TabAtkins: Right now, the spec says that because these transform lists don't match, turn it into a matrix and interpolate that TabAtkins: In this particular case, not too terrible, but if rotate(545deg) TabAtkins: Lose several turns, also other weird cases <ChrisL> conversion to matrix gives you a rotate normalized to 0..360 TabAtkins: Want better ways to do this TabAtkins: Shane and I were talking, came up with several alternate suggestions TabAtkins: Suggestion now is take tranform list TabAtkins: Right now is <transform>+ TabAtkins: Suggest do <transform>+# TabAtkins: Within a group, smart or stupid interpolation TabAtkins: But between groups, [do something smart] TabAtkins: author can write transform: translateX(100px), rotate(545deg); transform: scale(2) translateX(200px), null; TabAtkins: and that will interpolate sanely TabAtkins: Also solves other issues TabAtkins: JS has some models that are hard to do in CSS TabAtkins: E.g. GreenSock library just exposes translate, rotate, scale as separate "properties" in its animation model TabAtkins: Can't do arbitrary combinations TabAtkins: While this is simpler than our model, can independently animate rotation or scale, without affecting other transforms TabAtkins: Very difficult in our model, because we can't modify just the scale TabAtkins: By separating out with comma, can adopt convention to do translate,rotate,scale TabAtkins: And then whatever generic solution we have for accessing list-valued properties will be usable for this dbaron: What do you mean? TabAtkins: People want to be able to modify one segment of a comma-separated list dbaron: Have a bunch of use cases where people want to add to, rather than replace, a list. Need additive cascade for that. TabAtkins: We also have cases where one class ads a rotation, another class adds a scale, don't want to list all combinations Dirk: additive animations should be handled at a global level, not just for transforms Dirk: and they are complex, we should ... krit: Animations and transforms are complex, even have issues in SVGWG krit: Only define animations for scale, translate, etc. TabAtkins: Going back to diversion about list-value properties dbaron: What are other cases where people want to edit within, rather than append? TabAtkins: background-image dbaron: here you can divide the transforms into categories, less true of bgimage TabAtkins: I'd have to look through for other cases, but that's the big one krit: I would like to have use cases on the ML, so can discuss on ML krit: second, comma is not a good separator, and in SVG comma and space are interchangeable krit: We have content already that uses it krit: Lastly, think it's a bigger change than we want to do in this level fantasai: Totally agree it's too significant for this level hober: Agree the proposal is a neat way of handling this, but not in this level dbaron: Don't think this makes things that much easier for authors. dbaron: Authors can already make their functions line up so they animate correctly. dbaron: This is just a slightly different way of making their functions line up dbaron: It could save you a function here or there, but doesn't seem like massive improvement to me TabAtkins: Does mean you can do less coordinate in base case TabAtkins: E.g. have multiple independent classes that apply some transform (rotate class, transform class, etc) TabAtkins: In base case, need to have sufficient null transforms Bert: How long will these lists get? TabAtkins: As long as you need to represent your intent Bert: Why not just add identity transforms there TabAtkins: more complicated cases ...? TabAtkins: Combinatorial problem fantasai: But this doesn't solve that TabAtkins: It makes it more likely to be solved when we solve this problem generally ChrisL: Probably want null, to be consistent with "null transform" terminology commonly used elsewhere fantasai: Also, 'none' and identity transform are not identical dbaron: No? fantasai: stacking contexts and other fun things like that? -> null fantasai: think it's an interesting idea, not something we should work on right this minute. Not convinced it's a great solution to all the problems. fantasai: If we have generic solution for splicing comma-separated lists, maybe revisit then because could be more compelling, but right now doesn't seem like enough of an improvement to be worth adding [and solving all issues on etc.] Bert: Adding null transform seems good enough, don't think most lists will be that long anyway krit: Could easily just add scale(1) etc. krit: Would really like to see use cases first, then have this discussion <ChrisL> scale(1) would not match up with a rotate TabAtkins: Another comment, if we ever do smarter fixup, this will allow us to [...] krit: ... krit: identity transform on second list krit: If identical except one is shorter than other TabAtkins: Do you pad beginning? end? Something else? fantasai: So, do we want to add a null transform? krit: Don't need it, just use identity transforms TabAtkins: Then have to match up types, not just indices Switching topics, no conclusion TabAtkins: Do we want to talk about list-value problem? fantasai: Not now? Doesn't seem like that urgent Meeting closed.
Received on Thursday, 19 September 2013 08:29:19 UTC