- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:03:13 -0700
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Summary:
- Discussed WDs that were published but not announced.
- RESOLVED: Add Simon Pieters as editor to CSSOM, CSSOM-View
- RESOLVED: September F2F is 9-11 in France, either Sophia or Paris
- RESOLVED: Reset min-width/min-height to zero for Flex Items
- RESOLVED: Call the page box's containing block a page container
- Discussed cycle formed by :root { font-size: 1vw } @page { width: 50em }
and what to do to break it.
- Florian queried for interest in addressing Device Adaptation issues
====== Full minutes below ======
Present:
Glenn Adams
Rossen Atanassov
David Baron
Bert Bos
Tantek Çelik
Jim Dovey
Elika Etemad
Simon Fraser
Daniel Glazman
Rebecca Hauck
Koji Ishii
Dael Jackson
John Jansen
Brad Kemper
Anton Prowse
Florian Rivoal
Simon Sapin
Dirk Schulze
Alan Stearns
Nick Van den Bleeken
Steve Zilles
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/03/13-css-irc
<glazou> http://lockerz.com/s/286935518
Scribe: fantasai
Administrative
--------------
glazou: Sorry for sending agenda really late. Blocked by snowstorm in Paris.
glazou: So agenda is somewhat random.
glazou: Please, if any other items, say so
Outstanding Publications and Announcements
------------------------------------------
<glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0284.html
glazou: First on agenda is wrt specs that are WDs moving along REC track
glazou: "Outstanding Publications"
fantasai: [summarizes email]
krit: Does the announcement need to be on a blog post?
glazou: IIRC we resolved on that a year and a half ago
glazou: One of the editors should write a blog post on the CSSWG blog
glazou: and post on twitter wrt updated WD/etc.
SimonSapin: How do you publish on the blog?
glazou: WordPress with W3C credentials
glazou: If you can't log in, ask Coralie Mercier
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/publish
<Bert> (Or ask me, but in principle all WG members have write access
to the blog automatically.)
fantasai: The idea is to post to www-style/blog to let people know that
there's an update, and to say what's changed/what you'd like
feedback on especially.
fantasai: On topic of publications, has telecon for css3-conditional
CR been scheduled?
Bert: Working on that today.
Editorship
----------
glazou: Next item, adding Simon Pieters to CSSOM
glenn: Shane hasn't been able to contribute
glenn: I suggest that Simon could take over primary editorship on
CSSOM-View spec
glenn: and could assist with CSSOM as well, depending how much energy
he can put in, can make more progress
RESOLVED: Add Simon Pieters as editor to CSSOM, CSSOM-View
<SimonSapin> Simon Pieters is sometimes zcorpan on IRC
September F2F
-------------
SteveZ: The website currently lists week of Sept 9-13
SteveZ: Those are fine with me, but have a conflicting meeting the next
week, was hoping to lock down dates for that week
glazou: I have PM from Peter, he's fine with 9-13 but would prefer
beginning of the week
SteveZ: Fine with me
SteveZ: 2nd question is where. Talking about France
SteveZ: Document conference in Florence 10-13
SteveZ: Hard to do both in same week
glazou: Unfortunately missing members in the room at this time
SteveZ: Don't know who was planning to go to that conference.
Bert: I added that to the calendar, in case ppl were interested in sharing.
Bert: ACM Document Engineering: layout, process, etc.
Bert: Very interesting
[discussion on conference scheduling]
Bert: Don't think there will be a lot of overlap, but might be interesting.
Not important enough to reschedule our own meeting.
glazou: So let's say for time being 9-10. Where?
fantasai: Paris and Zurich were volunteered
SteveZ: And Sophia
<tantek> for Paris we were considering Mozilla hosting
dbaron: New Mozilla office in Paris opens soon, but not open yet.
Might be easier to assess once it's open
<tantek> Paris Mozilla office should be open by start of next month
glazou: Everyone ok with 9-11 Sept in France?
RESOLVED: September F2F is 9-11 in France, either Sophia or Paris
<florian> I won't know my availability then for quite a while, so I
can't comment either way
<tantek> glazou - I have a meeting in the 8th in the UK
<tantek> would F2F 10-12 be ok?
<dbaron> I think there was also an offer from Google to host in Zürich
glazou: (to tantek) Take the EuroStar. No problem.
<tantek> ok
Flexbox
-------
glazou: agenda item wrt Flexbox
<glazou> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JanMar/0296.html
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0364.html
glazou: wrt reverting Flexbox to use zero as min-width
glazou: Has anyone reviewed the proposal?
dbaron: Fine with it
Rossen: Yes, agreed
glazou: Other opinions?
Anton: Why did we add it in the first place
dbaron: What we lose by changing it, we get back when we add min-content
and other keywords for heights
dbaron: Temporary loss, ability to have flexbox that doesn't go down
below its intrinsic size
<dbaron> get it back with the min-content etc. keywords
fantasai: We were triggering it by default because shrinking by default.
fantasai: Thought it was good to have a minimum for some common cases
like toolbars.
Rossen: once we have min-content, then all other keywords, we get
everything back.
fantasai: The problem with having it by default is that nested flexboxes
get complicated and hard to author.
glazou: Any objections to the proposal?
RESOLVED: Reset min-width/min-height to zero for Flex Items
fantasai notes that MSFT's implementation does min-content by default,
so app authors would have to be aware of that change.
Rossen: When evaluated internally, thought it was fine to explicitly
request min-content.
CSS3 Paged Media
----------------
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Mar/0219.html
<fantasai> I think I dreamed that I replied to that...
SimonSapin explains his email
fantasai: I think actually that we should keep "page box" as the name
of the box into which the content is flowed
SimonSapin: Do we change how MQ work?
fantasai: There's an open issue on that anyway
SimonSapin: They're based on outer width of page box
fantasai: And just need a new term for size given by size property
SimonSapin: Also might want page-margin boxes to be siblings of page box.
<BradK> I agree with Simon
SimonSapin: Would help explain stacking
fantasai: Wouldn't explain inheritance though.
fantasai: For the other size... maybe "initial page size"? like
"initial containing block".
fantasai: "page base size" or "page basis"
SimonSapin: But MQ refers to...
fantasai: We can always update MQ to fix terminology. That's just editorial.
SimonSapin: Is group ok with making page box sibling of margin boxes?
fantasai: Don't think it matters how you explain it, as long as behavior
doesn't change.
antonp: Think it makes sense.
<BradK> I like it as sibling
<BradK> Content-box
<fantasai> "page container"
<SimonSapin> page-content box
<fantasai> no, that would be the content box of the page box
* fantasai thinks this isn't important to resolve, it's just editorial
* antonp agrees with fantasai
RESOLVED: Call the page box's containing block a page container
SimonSapin: If we have time, could discuss interaction of @page and MQ
glazou: Might have time today
glazou: Liam's not on the call, so yes we have time
SimonSapin: we have an open issue a long time
SimonSapin: How do viewport units interact with @page
SimonSapin: ...
SimonSapin: We discussed @viewport
SimonSapin: Which changes the default page size, and then applies MQ
SimonSapin: and affects viewport units
fantasai: I think for viewport units in these contexts, it makes sense
to either make them invalid, or have them refer to the default
page size, like fonts refer to default page size
<SimonSapin> :root { font-size: 1vw } @page { width: 50em }
SimonSapin: @page inherits from root element now
fantasai: This is so that if you set fonts on your document, your margin
boxes get the same font.
SimonSapin: So where do we break this cycle?
SimonSapin: (without breaking some use case)
SimonSapin: Maybe one way to do that is like @viewport, make a first
pass applying @page rules
SimonSapin: viewport units are based on some default
SimonSapin: Then we have base page size, whatever the name,
SimonSapin: which is used for MQ when we apply everything again
SimonSapin: It works nicely with @viewport
SimonSapin: But for @page rules it's more complicated because we
generate pages
SimonSapin: Could get weird cases which don't make sense.
florian: In general support the idea, but don't know enough about page
generation
fantasai: [explains named pages and how, e.g. name of first page can
depend on 'page' property of first heading in document]
fantasai: I would be in favor of breaking this cycle earlier somehow
* glazou +1
Florian: Need a non-crazy behavior, don't need to go further than that.
<florian> when all the pages are the same size, do the obvious, when
not, do something non crazy.
fantasai: Simon's example there shows two very common use cases
fantasai: First one is commonly used for slides, or anything else you
want font size to grow with size of page
fantasai: Second case is used in Japanese documents, where you want
the page size to be an exact multiple of the size of the
main paragraph font.
florian: Do you want the page size based on the character, or the
character size based on the page?
fantasai: The former. You pick a comfortable font size and lay out
around that.
koji: Yeah
fantasai: So we want both of those to work, but don't want them to
make a cycle.
<SimonSapin> @page { size: A4; margin: 4em; /* width: auto */ }
SimonSapin: One option is to have the @page context not inherit from
the root
SimonSapin: That does break some use cases, but easiest to work around.
SimonSapin: Just means that you have to copy your font declarations
into an @page rule.
glazou: Maybe the only way we can compromise without adding too much
overhead.
* fantasai wonders what AH does
SimonSapin: Also 'direction' and 'writing-mode' properties can be relevant
SimonSapin: they determine which is the first page: left or right
SimonSapin: Another reason it's nice to have inheritance from the root
element
florian: I'm wondering if the first page really matters. Whichever
page it is, all going to be the same. If they're going to be
different can't be perfect anyway
* fantasai notes that Japanese documents commonly use multiple sizes
in the same book. Same margin box size, different page
content areas
SimonSapin: So, we don't need to decide anything today about this,
but please think about it and discuss on mailing list.
florian: do we have a few concrete options? Or just vague problem area
where we need ideas.
SimonSapin: So one proposal is to do like @viewport, do two passes.
SimonSapin: Other option is to not inherit from the root element.
fantasai: Whatever we do here should be consistent with @viewport
fantasai: So my criteria are
a) break the cycle
b) don't break use cases, even if some are less convenient
c) keep @page and @viewport consistent
florian: Agree with fantasai's statement. Not sure I understand all
the implications of that.
<SimonSapin> if we go with not inherit from the root
glazou: Not sure we're going to close this now
glazou: Maybe up to you to make a proposal based on discussion we had
today
<fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/topics
SimonSapin: I will write up various options by email
Device Adaptation Status
------------------------
glazou: Anything else?
florian: Several things on device-adapation spec. Would be nice to tackle,
but would like to hear from rest of group.
florian: Think MS has partial implementation. Others?
florian: Agree with Hċkon most of what was proposed
glazou: Since you're not working for Opera... is Opera still working on
this?
florian: I have don't know what they're doing
florian: I would guess they'll try to port this to WebKit
florian: Rune has sent a bunch of mails about this after the announcement,
so maybe still working on it. Pure speculation.
glazou: We have 3 editors
glazou: 3 issues in tracker.
glazou: Let me ping the editors
florian: I think at some point I was supposed to co-edit this as well
florian: Tracked issues are fewer than the mailing list
glazou: Ok, I will ping the editors and you
glazou: anything else?
Meeting closed.
Received on Friday, 15 March 2013 04:03:42 UTC