- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 01:28:04 -0700
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Summary:
- RESOLVED: em is computed font-size; ex, ch measure actual value font metrics
- RESOLVED: Publish Fonts LC after solving @font-feature-values OM dependency
on as-yet-unspecced WebIDL features
- Discussed turning text-align into shorthand including text-align-last;
Rossen to collect data on existing usage.
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0263.html
- Discussed having letter-spacing: <length> not disable inter-letter justification
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0280.html
====== Full minutes below ======
Present:
Rossen Atanassov
Tab Atkins
Shezan Baig
David Baron
John Daggett
Tantek Çelik
Justin Erenkrantz
Elika Etemad
Simon Fraser
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman
Rebecca Hauck
Koji Ishii
Dael Jackson
Brian Kardell
Brad Kemper
Philippe Le Hégaret
Peter Linss
Florian Rivoal
Simon Sapin
Dirk Schulze
Alan Stearns
Leif Arne Storset
Nick Van den Bleeken
Steve Zilles
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0606.html
<RRSAgent> http://www.w3.org/2013/06/26-css-irc
Scribe: SimonSapin
Administrative
--------------
glazou: extra items?
<dbaron> May be worth mentioning that TPAC registration is open:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0138.html
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2013AprJun/0140.html
Fonts LC
--------
jdaggett: had lots of comments
jdaggett: 2 issues
jdaggett: OM of @font-feature-values, waiting on a new piece of WebIDL
jdaggett: as is Varibales
jdaggett: Second issue: font-size-adjust vs. em/ex/ch units
jdaggett: ask for LC next tuesday, resolve issues during LC period
fantasai: would like to resolve unit issue now
glazou: are you ok for LC if we do that?
fantasai: yes
glazou: other opinions?
glazou: being heavy user of the OM I’m worried about that issue
glazou: LC means almost finished, dealing with issue after LC is weird
glazou: but don’t want to block
jdaggett: relies on Map… struct, not defined yet in WebIDL
TabAtkins: heycam promised it this week
glazou: within a week we should resolve issues?
jdaggett: yes
glazou: Then I withdraw my concern
glazou: Other opinions?
RESOLVED: Fonts LC after resolving the 2 issues
<fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0517.html
fantasai: issue in computing ch/em/ex unit with font-size-adjust
<fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0590.html
fantasai: proposal is: ex/ch computed against the used font size, with metrics
fantasai: accounting for font-size-adjust and other things/substitutions
fantasai: we really want to match the glyphs; need font data anyway, might
as well account for everything we can
fantasai: em could go either way, either use the used size like ex, or
just use the computed font-size
fantasai: computed might not be a probles, some fonts go outside of the
used em-box anyway
dbaron: would prefer to stick with what 2.1 says: em is computed font-size
TabAtkins: … used-value time units … ?
dbaron: you need font data for ex
dbaron: want to respond to downloadable font, but keep the units
computed-value-time
dbaron: The computed value just changes when the font loads.
* Rossen agrees with dbaron
florian: could you clarify why?
dbaron: complicating the space of computed value is a huge complexity
dbaron: changing all properties with length units
dbaron: lot of implementation work
* tantek agrees regarding the complexity problem that dbaron mentioned.
TabAtkins: happy with this if you are
SimonSapin: we already rejected making vh/vw used-value-time for the same
reasons
fantasai: not quite the same reasons
TabAtkins: viewport units decision was clearer because of dependency on
layout
TabAtkins: depending on downloaded resources is a greyer area
fantasai: summary: 2 points to resolve on
fantasai: 1. em units remain = to computed font-size
<SimonSapin> I agree
<bkardell> I agree
fantasai: 2. ex/ch units relative to the metrics of the 1st available font
<SteveZ> +1
fantasai: used value of that metric
jdaggett: requires update to css-values
fantasai: yes, will do
SimonSapin: ML comment: ex has no character for input to font matching algo
jdaggett: that’s in css-fonts now, css-values only need to use that
glazou: do we all agree of the two parts? objections?
RESOLVED: adopt fantasai’s proposal
glazou: provided the other issue is resolved, Fonts go to LC
jdaggett: defer the ... issue to next week
CSS3 Text
---------
<fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jun/0263.html
fantasai: interaction of text-align and text-align-last
fantasai: 1 rule to justify the last line, other rule to center all
fantasai: [explains as in the email]
* glazou agrees 100% with fantasai 's suggestion
fantasai: people expect text-align-list to be a longhand of text-align,
it’s not
fantasai: making it a shorthand can break existing content if the shorthand
is set just after
fantasai: so, backward-compat concern, since text-align-last shipped in IE6
Rossen: want to know the syntax to run queries against db of existing content
Rossen: expect usage to not be none, but will check
glazou: only engine shipping it?
fantasai: Mozilla too, very recently
fantasai: It's only a back-compat problem in one particular order
SteveZ: concern with Chinise/Japanese typically use text-align-last: justify
SteveZ: having it apply only with 'justify' makes sense when you turn
it off and specify 'center' afterwards
SteveZ: much more frequent than you might think
fantasai: proposal to add a justify-all value to make this easy
SteveZ: people on this call are not the ones actually using it
stearns: use case to set text-align-last justify when text-align is not
justify?
fantasai: not sure
SteveZ: chinese typically all
stearns: IE solution to have it only apply when text-align is justify
makes sense
stearns: Don’t the complexity of this proposal if we standardize on IE’s behavior
glazou: two proposals here, what do people think?
Rossen: when would you use it? other than text-align: justify
florian: sounds at least unusual
stearns: use case unusual, not sure properties are really separate
stearns: letter-spacing eg. changes justification
stearns: this wouldn’t be the only case of depending on another property
having another value
* fantasai occasionally writes with start alignment, but end-aligns the last line
* fantasai on whiteboards and things
* glazou yes but fantasai is the human counter-example we needed in the csswg ;-)
Rossen: prefer backwards compat
Rossen: if we were starting fresh then we should have just one property
with an optional value for "last line"
Rossen: so what are we doing with this property?
glazou: depencencies between properties are weird, but backward compat
is valuable too
Rossen: But, we have two shipping implementations that use two properties
Rossen: we’re certainly gonna keep supporting what we have
Rossen: the property is not new
Rossen: it would have been better to specify this as a value, but it’s
been out for years
<BradK> I like 'text-align: justify all' that would override
'text-align-last: <whatever>'.
glazou: decide that we are waiting for your numbers?
glazou: if there is little usage, there is an impact
SteveZ: how do you define "little"? relative to language, …
Rossen: also, what kind of data to mine
Rossen: gonna do it against web content, but expect more usage in Word
docs converted to HTML
koji: As far as I tested Word 2010, it export to HTML doesn't use this property
koji: it uses other MS extensions
<fantasai> It uses 'text-justify: distribute-all-lines'
fantasai: which is not in any spec of ours
Rossen: yeah, we have this one
<koji> Word 2013 uses "text-align:justify;text-justify:distribute-all-lines"
glazou: what do we do?
florian: if triggered by text-align: justify, don’t we have what we want?
glazou: don’t know what to do, it’s up to implementers
dbaron: people worried about compat should check
Rossen: Word docs are harder to mine
SteveZ: Word does not use this
Rossen: 2013 yes, previous versions unknown
<bkardell> is it plausible that corp IT environments that standardized
on IE way back might have this? You wouldnt be able to mine
that either, right?
Rossen: by next week will have data
glazou: defer resolution to next week?
Rossen: ok with that
Rossen: we are not gonna back out this property
glazou: this data only breaking if translating to HTML?
Rossen: with Sharepoint presenting everything as HTML, it’s not that rare
fantasai: issue only if the order is text-align-last then text-align
fantasai: If Word is emitting text-align first, then there is no problem
glazou: let’s wait for the data, revisit next week
Topic: Allowing 'letter-spacing: <length>' to justify
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0280.html
fantasai: current rules prevent justification when letter-spacing is not
normal
fantasai: avoid this we allow justification for length, and have normal
compute to 0
jdaggett asks clarification
fantasai: no letter-spacing value would constrain justification
jdaggett: justification should just be additional spacing, not proportional
jdaggett: only apply to text-justify: distribute, right?
fantasai: also 'auto', in CJK text
<stearns> +1 to fantasai's solution
glazou: comments?
<liam> [I can't call in because of noise here but note that letterspacing
should not normally be used for justification in non-newspaper
texts even in English (and obviously never for German)]
<SimonSapin> liam, so there should be a way to prevent letter spacing
as justification?
<liam> the default should be, do not use letter spacing for justification
<liam> it considerably reduces comprehension when letterspacing is uneven
<fantasai> liam, the default is already to allow letter-spacing for justification
<liam> then that's broken, but at the very least there needs to be a way
to disable it
SteveZ: if I set letter-spacing:0 I do not get letter spacing for justify
fantasai: currently yes, but there are documents that require otherwise
fantasai: letter-spacing: 0 currently does not allow justification per spec,
but implementations don't follow
stearns: proposal: set "0 fixed" to disable justification
SteveZ: just a question of existing impl or deeper?
fantasai: both
<BradK> Would letter-spacing be a minimal value for justification?
<stearns> BradK: yes, it would set a minimum, but could be increased by justification
* krit What happened to the Text TF ?
<BradK> Alan, that seems reasonable.
fantasai: we don’t have a way to ???
fantasai: current rules prevent justification if you also have tracking
fantasai: this would allow tracking and also allow justification
fantasai: which the current spec does not allow
fantasai: more consistent with word-spacing
fantasai: solving problems + gain consistency
fantasai: losing ability to disable justification in letter spacing,
but could add a keyword for that
SteveZ: bothered by letter-spacing applying to CJK
fantasai: why?
SteveZ: because CJK are different from letters, hiragana makes it messy
fantasai: we don’t want a separate property for each script
SteveZ: part of the problem is making it work in a situation where
letter spacing was not intended to work
fantasai: not sure this makes sense
fantasai: some want to distribute space
fantasai: in other cases they don’t
<bkardell> maybe we can punt this back to the list until next week and
move on with other items?
* fantasai it's been on the list for a long time, nobody has commented
* liam has been meaning to follow up on the list, sorry
SteveZ: concern: making letter-spacing work for CJK will have bad
side-effects where it’s unexpected
fantasai: it has always worked
fantasai: issue is whether using letter-spacing prop disables justification
SteveZ: latin users would expect to disable justification
SteveZ: that’s why mixing them is a problem
* liam agrees Japanese (and probably C & K) very different from Latin script
for letter spacing. Letter spacing disabled should not disable
justification in latin scripts but obviously should for cjk
TabAtkins: given that word-spacing does not disable justification,
don’t understand why you expect that
SteveZ: letter-spacing is much less frequently used
SteveZ: precise adjustments, don’t want justification in that context
fantasai: would like to solve the problem we have here, and add control
for disabling justification or not later
SteveZ: users that expect justification disabled are surprised
fantasai: implementations don’t do justification between latin letters
<liam> [sample use case, long legal contract all in caps/small-caps with
letterspacing]
<tantek> re: use-cases for suppressing letter-spacing and/or justification
<BradK> If people don't want justification with their letter-spacing,
they can just use text-align to turn off justification
fantasai: we don't have content that sets letter-spacing: 0; to turn off
justification between Latin letters because implementations don't
justify between Latin letters currently.
fantasai: but we do have content that specifies letter-spacing:0 and
expects CJK text to justify
glazou: defer to email
fantasai: are people gonna participate? been open on the list for a long time
<tantek> sounds like some actions
SteveZ: yes, will discuss on email
Meeting closed.
Received on Wednesday, 3 July 2013 08:28:32 UTC