- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 23:46:56 -0700
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Summary:
- Discussed proposal to allow justification in combination with
explicit letter-spacing
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0280.html
Seem to have consensus around Part I of proposal, except for Bert
- Plan to tie impact of 'image-resolution's 'snap' keyword to
layout-affecting zoom; transforms and scaling-zoom would not have
an effect. Tab to propose text describing the two different kinds
of zoom in either Media Queries or CSS Device Adaption.
- RESOLVED: two X/Y values for image-resolution, to allow explicit
values to match from-image in capabilities
- RESOLVED: Clarify spec that CSS units (not physical units) are
used for resolutions taken from image data
- RESOLVED: FPWD Matrix, with naming issues noted
- RESOLVED: box-fixup on internal table elements before flex item
determination, unless further problems raised during LC
- WG members should register participation in Paris F2F on wiki
====== Full minutes below ======
Present:
Glenn Adams
Tab Atkins (late)
Shezan Baig
David Baron
Bert Bos
Tantek Çelik
Elika Etemad
Simon Fraser
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman
Rebecca Hauck
Koji Ishii
Dael Jackson
John Jansen
Brian Kardell
Philippe Le Hégaret
Peter Linss
Chris Palmer
Florian Rivoal
Simon Sapin
Dirk Schulze
Alan Stearns
Leif Arne Storset
Lea Verou
Steve Zilles
<RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/07/31-css-irc
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Jul/0685.html
Scribe: SimonSapin
CSS3 Text
---------
fantasai: on the ML, edits to justification section
<glazou> see also https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013JulSep/0092.html
fantasai: waiting for SteveZ and jdagget to review and approve
fantasai: if no comment, next issue
SteveZ: jdaggett wants to continue discussion on the ML
[discussing what is the 2nd issue]
fantasai: proposal: letter-spacing allows justification with space
between characters when set to a length
fantasai: consistent with word-spacing, impls., some content depends
on this
SteveZ: agree to allow some level of justification if letter-spacing
is used
SteveZ: not happy with 'fixed' as a way to turn it of
SteveZ: letter spacing variation are very small (few %)
SteveZ: fixed doesn’t correspond to what people find useful: min,
mix variation
fantasai: one issue at a time
fantasai: 1 whether letter-spacing: length suppresses justification
fantasai: 2. do we have a way to turn this kind of justification off
SteveZ: is 2. a way to control it?
SteveZ: control is more important
fantasai: already resolved to not allow min/max spacing at this level
of the spec
SteveZ: if you can’t control it, you shouldn’t allow it
fantasai: then content breaks, impls need to change, and this is
inconsistent with word-spacing
SteveZ: lets put min/max back on the table
fantasai: not going to CR if you say we need this, and jdagget says
we can’t have this
<plinss> ack Bert
<Zakim> Bert, you wanted to suggest the question is the wrong way around:
we need a way to turn flexible letter spacing *on* (not off)
Bert: the way to turn automatic letter-spacing on could be to use the
'distribute' keyword
Bert: maybe not necessary to have control on the limits, but just say
there is a limit or no limit on expansion
Bert: maybe not further than twice the normal size is good enough
Bert: new keyword on text-justify, suggested on the ML. 'unlimited'
SteveZ: this is what fixed does
SteveZ: the spec does not specify a limit, but gotta be reasonable
SteveZ: kinds of limits I was coming across are +/- 5%, much smaller
than half
fantasai: letter-spacing also applies between CJK characters, in this
case you do not want to limit
SteveZ: CJK task force has a huge table of cases, it’s not uniform at
all. Unclear that this works for CJK
fantasai: auto justification algo is undefined, UAs encouraged to do
the right thing
fantasai: don't want to have strong limits on what UAs can do: 2.1 says
"can not add space between characters for justification"
stearns: 'fixed' keyword is not about not allowing variable expansion,
it forbids expansion at all
<stearns> thought that 'distribute' is what Bert is suggesting as
'unlimited'
<Bert> (To stearns: yes, and I suggest redfining 'distribute' as including
an implicit limit, and 'unlimited' is what 'distribute' does now.)
<stearns> Bert: I'd rather leave 'distribute' as is
fantasai: goal is to allow CJK to justify correct, so need to lift this limit
fantasai: also not break content and impls
fantasai: in order to get the previous spec behavior: add the 'fixed'
keyword, if that’s what you want
fantasai: impls will have to add it, but does not break content as its opt-in
fantasai: can add further controls in the future
plinss: anybody implemented previous spec behavior?
fantasai: not that I know of
Bert: I've been relying on it. letter-spacing: 0
fantasai: people who don’t read specs don’t do that, because currently
it has no effect.
fantasai: Implementations right now don't do justification with spacing
between latin letters.
Bert: content is there for what the spec says, not for future impls
florian: if nobody has implemented it, [???]
florian: I think fantasai’s way forward is more managable
plinss: continue discussion on email?
<stearns> +1 to fantasai's current wording
<florian> If nobody has implemented it, I suspect not many people have
written stylesheet that conform to the spec in a way that
breaks on current implementation, so while it is unfortunate
to contradict ourselves, it still sounds like a less painful
way
SteveZ: I think there is some agreement to allow letter-spacing to
participate in justification
SteveZ: we’re struggling with how to do that with existing impls/spec/content
SteveZ: even if we add min/max, you have to turn those one which doesn’t
work with existing content
SteveZ: unless we have defaults like +/- 5%
fantasai: that’s too small for CJK
stearns: leave impls. to choose limints
stearns: can have controls for the limits later
stearns: in favor of fantasai’s proposal now
SteveZ: I may be ok with that
+TabAtkins
SteveZ: what happens if you say fixed and specify a range
fantasai: you can't
fantasai: Basically, if we add min/max controls in the future,
'fixed' will be a shorthand to specify 3 identical values
fantasai: never able to combine it with a range
SteveZ: to do this correctly you need a table for CJK
SteveZ: table = range of values depending on context
SteveZ: also priorities between adjustments
SteveZ: more than %age, more complex in the Japanase Layout Task Force
report
fantasai: let’s not design that solution at this level
SteveZ: concern with 'fixed' is that it restricts this solution
SteveZ: letter-spacing was originally designed for latin
fantasai: want UAs do the right thing for justification by default,
though it may take awhile before we quite get there.
fantasai: fine tuning of this is not something we should do now, if at all
SteveZ: OK with that, I just don’t like 'fixed'
SteveZ: can we live without it?
fantasai: I’m ok with that
stearns: one of the use case for 'fixed' is German text, disable letter
spacing for justification to avoid confusion with emphasis
SteveZ: ???
SteveZ: when we see problems, we can engineer the right solution
SteveZ: 'fixed' seems to be not terribly helpful
plinss: consensus?
fantasai: I think allowing justification for 'letter-spacing: <length>'
and not having fixed is what jdaggett originally wanted,
so I think we should just resolve on not having 'fixed' and
he can object if he wants.
Bert: "There are newspapers that do that - more than 5%"
Bert: what if you do want letter spacing for justification?
fantasai: undefined for now
<tantek> perhaps post screenshots of newspapers that do this?
SteveZ: we say UAs should "do the right thing"
SteveZ: we need to experiment to see what values/controls make sense
Bert: By default I want that limit at 0 or 5%
Bert: don’t want to leave it completely open. Impls will do letter-spacing
without any limit and we won’t be able to get rid of it anymore
Bert: "Would like some way to say, if you use this keyword, then
you may use more than 5%"
plinss: the default is to whatever you think is right, 'auto' keyword
SteveZ: when mixing Latin and CJK, no one single number gives a good answer
fantasai: proposed resolution: accept part one of the proposal
Bert: I do not want to allow that between alphabetic letters
fantasai: you have to allow it for CJK, and need to allow more than 5%
SteveZ: bert’s proposal is to only relax when you say 'distribute'
Bert: 'auto' means letter-spacing is honored
Bert: I have content with letter-spacing:0 because I don’t want expansion
SteveZ: existing content that depends on the non-spec behavior of
existing impl
fantasai: existing content has letter-spacing:0 and expect expansion
Bert: that’s not what the spec says, we don’t have to deal with that
???: yes we do
plinss: let’s move on
fantasai: my understanding is: consensus except for Bert
fantasai: discuss with Bert on the ML?
SteveZ: would be helpful to document what existing content would break
fantasai: CJK content (no spaces) with 'letter-spacing: 0' that expects
expansion
Topic: text-align
Bert: problem that fantasai mentioned is the cascading problem
Bert: not sure that’s the same
<dbaron> (fantasai seems to have dropped off the call)
Conditional Rules
-----------------
plinss: where are we? Moving the spec forward
dbaron: I don’t really know
plinss: can we look into it and come back to it next week?
dbaron: T&A is higher priority
Scribe: fantasai
image-resolution: snap
-----------------------
SimonSapin: wrt snap keyword of image-resolution
SimonSapin: It's not really well-defined in CSS what the resolution is
SimonSapin: esp. wrt zoom and transforms
SimonSapin: Consensus on ML seems to be that transforms don't affect snap
SimonSapin: Zoom that changes size of viewport should affect snap,
but purely "optical" zoom should not
TabAtkins: Need some place that actually defines concept of viewport-zoom
vs. other zoom
TabAtkins: This distinction also affects device-pixel-ratio etc.
TabAtkins: The things that 'snap' responds to are same as canvas
TabAtkins: Dunno where to define
fantasai: I think MQ is a good place to define this
SimonSapin: What about device-adapt spec?
fantasai: That might be ok, too. What is the status of that anyway?
plinss: No WD since 2011
TabAtkins: should poke Opera
<sgalineau> is the editor still at Opera?
<oyvind> device-adapt? yes
florian: yes, the editor is still at Opera
ACTION TabAtkins: Define zooming, 2 types, for insertion into either MQ or device-adapt
<trackbot> Created ACTION-572
TabAtkins: visual zoom vs. layout zoom
fantasai: Define snap to respond only to layout zoom
<dbaron> I would *not* use the terms "visual zoom" and "layout zoom"
that TabAtkins suggested
<dbaron> The distinction really has to do with whether there's one
viewport or two.
<TabAtkins> Suggestions welcome, dbaron. ^_^
SimonSapin: 2 more issues...
SimonSapin: Two values for horizontal and vertical resolution
fantasai: Think that's out of scope for L3
SimonSapin: But when you have from-image, some images can have 2 values
SimonSapin: So CSS should also be able to handle that
florian: Given from-image is in this level, maybe do it in this level
fantasai: Could just allow it via from-image
fantasai: Ordering of dimensions should be same as border-spacing,
background-image...
fantasai: Note it's physical
TabAtkins: Well, logical in relation to the image
SimonSapin: Will interact with image-orientation
fantasai: yep
SimonSapin: Move to ML for details?
fantasai: Sounds reasonable. Maybe draft up text and bring back to WG?
fantasai: Anyone else on this topic?
RESOLVED: two X/Y values for image-resolution
SimonSapin: Units for image-resolution from-image
SimonSapin: from-image metadata, e.g. png spec has number of image
pixels per cm or whatever
SimonSapin: Do we interpret that as CSS units rather than physical units?
fantasai: Yes
SimonSapin: Clarify in spec
RESOLVED: Clarify spec that CSS units are used for from-image resolution
as well as CSS-explicit resolutions
Matrix API
----------
<krit> http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/matrix/
krit: We wanted to have an interface that can handle 3D as well
krit: Could have Matrix interface used by SVG and CSS together
krit: Hopefully CSSOM will eventually expose the matrix interface
krit: So wanted a joint specification
krit: would like to ask for feedbac, fpwd
* glazou supports FPWD for CSSMatrix interface
krit: Already asked for review 3-4 weeks ago, no feedback
plh: You name the interface CSSMatrix
plh: Do you imply it can only be used by CSS?
krit: Was called Matrix before, but not happy for WebGL people
krit: Not useful for them
krit: Asked us to use a more specific name
krit: since used for CSS Transforms, called it CSSMatrix
<dbaron> I'm not convinced by the argument that it should have
a CSS prefix
<tantek> dbaron++
* fantasai too
Bert: If we make this SVGMatrix, maybe SVGWG can take care of
publishing? ;)
glazou: Is name of interface a blocker for FPWD?
<tantek> I suggest we go FPWD without prefix
dbaron: I don't think it is, but should note the issue.
<tantek> OH: "… then wait for last call to change the name :)"
<sgalineau> TransformMatrix?
* fantasai likes it!
smfr notes that there's also CSSPoint interface
krit: Also have a DOMPoint interface
krit: Think I added an issue... it's under discussion.
fantasai: So, note the issues, publish FPWD?
RESOLVED: FPWD Matrix, with naming issues noted
* tantek is pleased to see the Matrix make progress.
Flexbox
-------
fantasai: I guess we discussed converting table-cells to flex items
fantasai: Do you have @supports yet? I think I would be uncomfortable
not having good fallback from flex to tables if we don't
have good support for @supports
Rossen: min-size?
TabAtkins: Different issue.
TabAtkins: Read & comment on thread
fantasai: Think we can go with box-fixup clarification
fantasai: and revisit during LC if necessary
RESOLVED: box-fixup on internal table elements before flex item
determination
<dbaron> If you're planning to come (or might come, please list probability)
to the Paris F2F, please add yourself to
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2013#participants
Meeting closed.
Received on Thursday, 1 August 2013 10:09:57 UTC