W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > January 2011

[css3-lists] Korean spacing

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 11:45:29 -0800
Message-ID: <4D3890D9.7060600@inkedblade.net>
To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Forwarding to www-style for issue-tracking.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: Korean-specific CSS issues to be discussed
Date: 	Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:40:59 +0900
From: 	Channy Yun <channy@gmail.com>
Reply-To: 	channy@gmail.com
To: 	Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu <kennyluck@w3.org>
CC: 	HTML Korean Interest Group <public-html-ig-ko@w3.org>, ML public-i18n-core <public-i18n-core@w3.org>, fantasai

Hi, Kenny.

This is Channy Yun, an invited expert of HTML W/G. I wasn't familiar with CSS3 specification, but I gave some feedback with
Mr. Oli about <ruby> of HTML.

1. CSS vertical
Actually it has disappeared the Korean vertical typesetting since 1999. Now there are only type setting from left to right in
Korea. So I think Korea is exceptional case from CJK.

2. CSS List
In spacing words in Korean numbers, 서른 둘 is wrong, but 서른둘 is right. It's right of spacing by 만(萬, 10,000) scale. For
examle, 10,001 is 일만 일 (O), 일만일(X) and 9999 is 구천구백구십구(O) and 구천 구백 구십 구(X). So, CSS List is only for 100
and in case of 99, 구십구 is right.


* Biomedical Knowledge Engineering Laboratory http://bike.snu.ac.kr
* Daum Developers Network & Affiliates http://dna.daum.net

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu <kennyluck@w3.org <mailto:kennyluck@w3.org>> wrote:

    Hello Korean friends,

    My name is Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu and I am a Chinese speaker working for W3C on, partially, internationalization on Web. It's
    very proud to see you having fruitful discussion about cutting edge HTML5 features and news (like the one about h.264 :)
    ). As CSS is essential to the Web but it is still far from complete in terms of its multilingual support, I would like to
    invite you to review CSS specs that have Korean-specific features. Notably,

    * CSS 3 Text[1] - a CSS module for multilingual text support, currently under heavy revision.
    * CSS 3 List[2] - a CSS module for lists. It has not been updated for many years but CSS WG just appointed a new editor to
    work on it
    [1] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/
    [2] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/

    To review the specs, basically you can just do a text search on the keywords "Korean", "Hangul" to find the relevant
    parts. Please don't be surprised when you find unexpected description of Korean (I was surprised the first time I read the
    parts about Chinese :) ) because the editors wouldn't be able to know every detail about every language, and that's why we
    need your help. There are actually several specific questions in these specs, but of course your discussions are not
    limited to these:

    For vertical writing in Korean, on which side do you put an underline on. The current draft says it should be put on the
    right (see 'text-underline-postion: auto' [3]), but my experiment[4][5][6] with IE shows something different. Which is
    correct? A real world picture, even from an old book, might tell a lot.

    [3] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-underline-position
    [4] http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/underline-pos
    [5] http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/underline-pos.ie7
    (the forces the page to be displayed in IE7 legacy mode and you can see the underline for Japanese is on the right but
    it's on the left for Korean)
    [6] http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/underline-pos.ie8

    For CSS 3 List, several changes have been suggested by a researcher from Microsoft[7]. You are encouraged to review the
    document as a whole. But the editor has a particular concern about 'hangul-legal'. Here's our conversation

    Tabatkins: kennyluck: Thanks a lot for the pointer back to that document about cjk fixes!  I had forgetten about it.
     Question for you guys when you review - is it intentional that hangul-legal doesn't have it's own version of the second
    digit marker?  Right now only the second digit marker, and the digits themselves, are falling back to cjk-ideographic.
     That feels like a possible error.
    kennyluck: TabAtkins: I am not a Korean, but I my guess is that Hangul-legal uses a tweak version of the cjk-ideographic
    kennyluck: 3. For each group, ignoring digits that have the value zero, append the second
    kennyluck: digit marker to the second digit, the third digit marker to the third digit, and
    kennyluck: the fourth digit marker to the fourth digit. These markers are defined in the
    kennyluck: tables for the specific numbering systems. The first digit has no marker.
    kennyluck: Perhaps "append the second digit marker to the second digit" does not apply to Hangul-legal, since it does not
    have it's version of the second digit marker.
    kennyluck: so for example, if 40032 is to converted to Hangul-legal.
    kennyluck: the "32" part became 3 2 and then 서른 둘
    kennyluck: instead of 3 + the second digit marker + 2
    kennyluck: 서른 and 둘 are from the table with the caption "For values between 1 and 99, appropriate digits are picked
    from the following list (at most one per column) and written in descending order by value. "
    tabatkins: kennyluck: If that's true (about hangul-legal not having a second digit marker) I'd need that clarified.  Right
    now my plan is to just treat it as all the other cjk systems, with a fallback to the specified additive system for numbers
    below 100.

    You might also want to think about how useful this particular list type is.

    [7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0153  (the attachement)

    "word-break:keep-all" seems to be used quite often in Korean, to disallow breaks in a series of Hangul not separated by
    white spaces. What should happen when "word-break:keep-all" is applied with "word-wrap: normal"[8]? (word-wrap is a
    property that triggers "emergency wrapping" and normal is its default value)

    For example, if you apply "word-break:keep-all" to, say, "안녕하세요" and then shrink the window until the window is
    smaller than "안녕하세 요". Should "안녕하세요" be split? I haven't tried it myself but you are encouraged to do some

    Notice that the current draft says yes but previous version[9] said no.

    [8] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#word-wrap



    You are encouraged to discuss these in Korean. After you have some conclusions about these issues, you are encourage to
    send feedback to the mailng list www-style [10] and Cc public-i18n-cjk [11]  list.

    [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
    [11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk

    Sorry for not being able to write this email in Korean. Translation of this mail will be much appreciated!

    W3C, Internationalization Working Group Member
Received on Thursday, 20 January 2011 19:46:04 UTC

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