- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:44:02 -0800
- To: www-archive@w3.org
It seems that the W3C Document License is not very appropriate for test suites, or at least for the CSS test suite. It makes requirements that are not appropriate and doesn't allow re-use in ways that are useful for test suites. The MIT license was suggested as an alternative but I think it gives a little /too/ much leeway in making changes without requiring that the result not be misrepresented as a W3C test. ----- The discussion in the CSSWG was about including the CSS tests in a test framework that may require changes to the tests. As an example, Dominique's test harness makes changes to the tests: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/mth/harness These changes are not allowed by the W3C Document License. ----- Another problem is that the W3C Document License doesn't allow modification. So a developer is not allowed to tweak the testcase to make it more useful in fixing a particular bug. ----- That's fine for the MWI test harness or any other harness that we choose to use here at W3C, but the problem here is that other groups will need to incorporate the tests into their own harnesses as part of their development process, and they shouldn't need to request permission from W3C to use the tests in such a manner. That's kinda what they're for. ----- We *want* developers to be able to modify the tests without resubmitting them to the CSSWG. This is a necessary part of using them in the layout engine development process. The only thing we don't want is for the modified tests to be confused with the official tests. If we can use a combination of the MIT license and trademark law for that, that would be ideal. Because that's really the issue here. If we can't then maybe we can write a new test suite license. ----- The longer we wait on this, the harder it is going to be to relicense existing tests. I want this issue resolved *soon*. Here are the allowances we need to have: a) Format-related modification of all tests to hook into a test harness. b) Unlimited modification of individual tests in order to simplify them or to create variations. Neither should require asking permission. They are both things that are done in the process of developing a layout engine, and layout engine developers shouldn't need to register with the W3C. The only requirement should be that the resulting tests not be easily confused with official tests from W3C. In case A, a simple disclaimer that the harness might affect the tests' correctness would probably suffice, provided that the harness attempts to make no substantial changes to the tests. We do this already for our own harnesses. In case B, it should be clear from the modified test itself that it is not part of the test suite, i.e. anything that identifies the test as part of the W3C's test suite should be changed or deleted. I believe it would be easiest for everyone involved if W3C picked a very liberal software license and enforced the above restrictions via trademark law, as the Mozilla Project is doing with their own code. ----- I don't expect very many test suite harnesses, but I do expect many test cases to be derived from the ones in the conformance test suite, some of which will make their way back to the official conformance test suite and most of which will be attachments to bug reports or added to regression test frameworks. ----- I think so, as long as we define a branding and restrict its use to W3C alone. E.g. modified tests may not be labeled "CSS2.1 Conformance Test". ----- I don't think anyone wants tests modified outside the W3C to be used for defining compliance or conformance to the spec. But it is very often useful and convenient to take tests from the test suite and use them as part of a regression test suite or to use parts of them to create new tests that then form part of some other test suite. We want to allow that, and to make it easy and painless. ----- Rigo, no one has any intention of changing the licensing on the CSS specs. It's just the test suite that's under discussion right now. I understand that there are other industry consortia that could interfere with our work here, but from my (limited) experience with the printing standards consortia I think CSS is actually more threatened by accidentally incorrect tests and incomplete test suites than by maliciously incorrect tests. Under the W3C Document License a different consortium can't take our tests as the basis of an incorrect test suite, but there is nothing preventing them from creating their own incorrect tests and labelling them as CSS Conformance Tests. So restrictive licensing can't solve this problem effectively anyway. (And as hixie notes, the license on W3C test suites often isn't followed anyway because it is so inconvenient.) We're better off with a strong trademark policy, because that's capable of addressing both these cases--and if we have that, then we should be able to relax the licensing to make the tests more usable for layout engine developers and open source projects. ----- Full discussion should be available somewhere on team-legal's archives. See also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2008Jan/0021.html thread at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2007Dec/0012.html (which continues on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2008Jan/thread.html ) and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2008Feb/0003.html ~fantasai
Received on Wednesday, 27 February 2008 22:43:52 UTC