- From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
- Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 02:38:24 +0100
- To: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
- Cc: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Janina Sajka, Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:07:42 -0500: > and reached such a markedly different conclusion from that > of the ARIA Task Force itself, Conclusion about what? And where is the ARIA Task Force' conclusion w.r.t. ISSUE-204? In the ARIA specs, you mean? I offer comments to the urls you pointed. See below. > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#include_elements This confirms that elements with @hidden must not be included in the a11y three. The HTMLwg is in violent *agreement* with ARIA on this, as much as I can see. > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_relations_reverse_relations > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_relations_reverse_relations This seems quite important - so I quote: "Note that aria-describedby may reference structured or interactive information where users would want to be able to navigate to different sections of content. User agents MAY provide a way for the user to navigate to structured information referenced by aria-describedby and assistive technology SHOULD provide such a method." This quote *does* say that AT/UA should make available to the user the interactive and structured semantics of an section that aria-describedby points to. > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/#mapping_role_table No comment. > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Descriptions_external Quote: "if you wish to reference an external resource with aria-describedby, you can reference a link that in turn references the external resource" And then it offers this this example, which I simplify for brevity: <img src=histogram alt="Histogram of Blackberry tree heights" aria-describedby=longdesc > <a id=longdesc href=link target=_description>Histogram data</a> Comment: I have earlier proposed to change this text - even to remove it - because it did not speak to the facts. But now, I have heard from Jonas, that this technique already works, for visible elements. [Though when I asked, he did not point me to a particular build of Firefox for testing.] What ISSUE-204 promises is that what the ARIA Practises document here describe for a link without HTML5's @hidden attribute, would also be possible for a link with HTML5's @hidden attribute. BUT NOTE: The link inside this example could very well be hidden, despite the fact that does not have aria-hidden=true. For instance: It might have been placed off-screen via CSS. The example does not say anything about this. [But note that ARIA 1.0 says that when an element is hidden, then it should have aria-hidden=true. So it is quite possible that this element should have had that. Because, as long as it is not hidden, it would be read read twice by the AT: Once when presenting the aria-describedby relationship and once when the rendering proceeds to the next element,after the <img>.] > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Descriptions_tooltip Hm. I guess a role=tooltip element could contain a link to a long description ... > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#kbd_layout_remaining_description > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#kbd_layout_remaining_description Quote: "This is unlike longdesc which typically requires the author to create a separate file to describe a picture." Comment: Longdesc does not 'typically require this' - it is just that longdesc typically is *used* that way. Quote: "It is preferable to have the descriptive text in prose as well so that it is readily available to all users" Comment: Question: Why is it preferable, when this could lead to repetition? At any rate: That it is preferable, means that the text take account for the fact that some will hide the description. Quote: "This is the preferred vehicle for providing long descriptions for elements in your document. … snip … aria-describedby can also be used to point to a link to another page" Comment: The sections discusses @longdesc many times. But says that @aria-describedby is the preferred method for long descriptions inside the document. And, despite that it claims that @longdesc's primary role is to point to other documents, it does demonstrate how to do the same with @aria-describedby. This document several times demonstrates how to use the alt attribute correctly. BUT NOT A SINGLE TIME DOES IT DEMONSTRATE HOW TO USE @longdesc - not even when it speaks about pointing to external documents. The elephant in the room .... No! The elephants - in plural. If the ARIA Task Force has reached a 'different conclusion' about - hm - @longdesc, then it has done its best to hide it. > http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#aria-describedby No comment. But I would like to also point to ARIA 1.0's section on Text Alternative Computation: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#textalternativecomputation quote: "Skip hidden elements unless the author specifies to use them via an aria-labelledby or aria-describedby being used in the current computation." -- Leif Halvard Silli
Received on Saturday, 18 February 2012 01:38:56 UTC